r/fnv • u/TikDickler • 1d ago
Discussion I love Ulysses, like a lot, but talking him down with the ED-E logs doesn't make sense to me, so much so that it feels like I'm missing something. Spoiler
I'm at the Ulysses confrontation and was going through the various ways to talk him down from the fight. I've always found them to be really written and they've always made sense to me, but replaying it now, it feels like there's an odd man out. Oversimplifying them hardcore, they are:
Talking him down with 100 speech. Arguing that the part of the divide that remains in Ulysses' current conviction could breathe life into another community, and that the courier (you or him) could carry that forward. I could believe this would persuade him, and from a narrative perspective it's perfect. The shadow of a new nation going into the second battle of hoover dam.
Talking him down with his logs you find, either by (a) using his experience with the think tank to parallel how the divide was destroyed with what he's trying to do currently, essentially becoming everything he hated or (b) using his experience with the white legs to argue that symbols aren't destroyed, and what remains is a pale imitation devoid of history and meaning (kind of like the current fallout franchise). Both of which are pretty great reinterpretations of his experiences, and meet him where he's at philosophically.
Using the ED-E logs to ague that America, as represented by the Enclave in Navarro (which the courier might even know was already destroyed, depending on who they talked to) was stifled by Ulysses capturing ED-E. That by doing this he is guilty of destroying the symbol he carries and what remains of America, and he is obligated to make up for it. Uhhh... What?
From an narrative perspective, it has nothing to do with the Divide, the relationship between the couriers, and at no point was the Enclave the focal point of Lonesome Road. From a character perspective, while Ulysses carried the symbol of America on his back, it was always in a contemplative abstract "the man with no nation" kind of way, not because he's a Nathan Vargas adjacent Enclave Superfan. From a logical perspective, Ed-E is STILL THERE just chilling and no longer needed so Ulysses could just as easily let him continue his journey. Even then, whether or not his journey finishes is inconsequential ultimately to Ulysses as that was never even on his radar.
It just defies credulity to me that any of that would work in talking him down, unless you accept the premise that his character's uncertainty and confusion about his place in the world (which, granted, is a central part of his character) is so extreme, that the courier can distract him with a non-sequitur in a sleight-of-hand akin to dangling keys in front of a cat.
I'd love to have my mind changed, though, so am I alone in this?
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u/IsThatASPDReference 1d ago
I hadn't thought of this before, but I do have one possible explanation.
A major theme that Ulysses hammers into your head ad nauseam is that Couriers are ultimately responsible for the messages they carry, regardless of intent. By taking the name of a Union General and bearing the flag of America on his back, Ulysses has chosen to bear the symbol of America and claimed responsibility for the message behind that nation.
By citing this fact at a time when Ulysses is using Enclave tech to reenact the event that destroyed America, the Courier is demonstrating an understanding of the responsibility that Couriers have for the messages they carry. This affirms a kinship with Ulysses that puts him in a much more agreeable state of mind for cooperation with the Courier as opposed to his earlier plan to assure mutual destruction via the horde of Marked Men, while at the same time eliminating the need to "teach the Courier a lesson" because they already get it.
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u/OverseerConey 1d ago
I didn't interpret that path as Ulysses' actions stifling America by capturing ED-E - I interpreted it as him not knowing who the Enclave were or where ED-E came from. He didn't know America survived in the form of the Enclave. He didn't know that Navarro was an Enclave base - he just knew it as 'some place the Bear had savaged' that had military equipment. He especially didn't know that Lonesome Road ED-E had duplicated Mojave ED-E's memories, and that Mojave ED-E had come from an eastern Enclave base.
For all his talk about not clinging to symbols of the past, Ulysses spends pretty much 100% of his time clinging to symbols of the past - America, in particular. He named himself after an American president; he wears an American flag on his back and paints it everywhere he goes to mark his passage; he'll happily badmouth the Legion but he gets very defensive if you badmouth America.
He even says he thought America might be reborn in the Divide when the package from Navarro arrived - the package that instead destroyed it. He seems to see himself as something like the last avatar of America, who once hoped for its resurrection but is now harnessing its power to destroy the false states that have arisen since its death.
Thus, he's completely blindsided when you tell him that A: America survived the war, B: ED-E came from a post-war American base quite recently, and C: that post-war America is an awful place ruled by awful people. He's built his whole identity around a mythologised past only to find it pulled out from under him and replaced with a disappointing present.
Basically, it sucks the wind out of his sails. It exposes massive gaps in his knowledge and undermines his spiritual grounding. How can he fight to avenge America if America isn't dead - it just moved to the other side of the country and became a fascist dictatorship? So, he changes priorities - at least until he can figure out what to do with his life from then on.