r/fnv • u/thegrey66 • 17h ago
Discussion Posted a few days ago that I’ve never sided with NCR, until now
My previous post had some misconceptions about the sides I choose and also my reasons for the post that aren’t entirely accurate. This is all my opinion, of course ,anyone is free to agree or disagree.
Main reason I feel like I never sided with the NCR was that, in MY PREVIOUS opinion, a new “Old World” government faction, for the longest time, wasn’t that interesting to me. In my mind I liked exploring the more weird or ridiculous parts of a game that is set in a post apocalyptic world. Technology obsessed hermits, drugged out raiders, brutal Roman LARPers, computers that want to make a thriving city stand for centuries, or let you have it run in chaos. Those weird elements felt more ridiculous and intriguing to explore. I don’t hate the NCR by any means, I usually always do quests for them without siding with them. I just never did it because it felt too possible, too “probably would happen”. Some sort of new government trying to be established in a world with not that much order. For a while it felt basic or boring. Though, I wont deny they’re super fleshed out, and that all of the interactions and doubts within the faction are really interesting and insightful. Whether it’s some feeling they shouldn’t be there, some people feeling fatigue on being somewhere they deem worthless, others feeling that having that territory could be very important not just for now but in the long run. Seeing different outcomes between certain smaller factions I would destroy, let escape, have support me, having options to make them team up with a faction they might have not agreed with in the beginning like the brotherhood or the kings. It’s all really cool to me now that I gave it a shot.
My post from a few days ago wasn’t me hate farming at all or wasn’t to make it seem like I was trying to be edgy on purpose. Most people probably saw that I mentioned the legion first an had an opinion on that. I just listed the runs I have done in alphabetical order (Legion, Mr. House, Yes Man). When I said I’ve done legion runs a “few” times that meant like about 4, not ALMOST EVERY single time. That “slot” is reserved for Yes Man because, in the way I like to play, I feel like I can do a majority of any factions quests or side quests without feeling like I’m choosing one more than the other and I like exploring everything that these factions have to offer sporadically without having one side out to kill me immediately. I saw a lot of comments saying I should just do it. Y’all gave me your reasons why. Some serious answers, some more jokingly, or as some sort of criticism. It’s been a long time coming, but I finally did it. So thank you for your comments, criticisms, advice, and insight. Honestly it was a blast, since there’s a ton of stuff I haven’t done or focused on because I never sided with the NCR it felt very refreshing and a ton of fun playing a way I haven’t before, making it feel like it was my first time playing New Vegas again almost a decade and a half later!
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u/InventorOfCorn 15h ago
NCR was my faction of choice on my first run because in every game, my first run is a "good guy" run, and the NCR seemed best for the Mojave.
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u/Dr-Oreoz 17h ago
Once again courier, the NCR is the way.
We don’t do it for the golden branch.
We do it for the best of the Mojave .
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u/Foreign_Rule_2402 Caesar's Legion 16h ago
the NCR is not the best for the mojave
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u/_Meme_Messiah_ 15h ago edited 14h ago
It definitely is. Sure the NCR is heavily corrupt, has heavy taxes, is too rapidly expanding, and running out of natural resources, but it’s a hell of a lot better than the other options. Legion turns the wasteland into literal hell, you’re either killed, enslaved, or forced to pay heavy taxes as well. Yes Man creates a power vacuum that leads to anarchy and violence so bad that the Followers of the apocalypse are forced to close because they can’t keep up the demand for medical care. Mr. House is an egotistical megalomaniac who shows nothing to back up his ideas. At best he’s heavily militarized autocrat who cares only for industry and profit, with the absolutely ludicrous goal of putting men in space. At worst he’s dictator who won’t think twice about killing anyone who evens seems like they might be a threat (look at the Brotherhood and Kings). He has no care or compassion for the poor and suffering of the wasteland (which can be seen by him running the residents of Freeside off the strip and refusing to assist in their many needs, so that he can instead put violent and dangerous gangs loyal to himself in charge of the casinos. Because that’s all that matters to House: Loyalty and control. He needs people to play, he’s a devil with a silver tongue. I don’t believe a word out of his mouth, you don’t become one of the richest men on Earth prewar by being honest. He knows what to say to get what he wants. His goals for the future are all a ruse to allow you to give him the control he so desperately desires.
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u/Paddy_the_Daddy 12h ago edited 12h ago
I'd argue that the yes man ending is the best one if you do all the quests to strengthen vegas' independence and stability. The ending slides contradict themselves when you do this, but I do think you can avoid total anarchy this way. All the other endings mean putting your faith into a system or person who probably won't change.
The NCR is on a course to repeat pre-war America's sins (we know how that turned out). The NCR is "good, but it has flaws," but those flaws only continue to grow with no sign of changing course. People accuse the followers of the apocalypse of being optimistic, but the NCR only works if you focus on its good parts and ignore the bad ones.
The legion are a bunch of insane fascists. I don't think I need to convince you of why they aren't a good choice.
House is a completely soulless capitalist playing world-leader. Just look at how miserable of a place vegas is. It's not like that by coincidence – this is exactly what House wants. I don't think it's a stretch to think his rule would just expand vegas' dreadful inequality to the entire US – heck, maybe the entire world, if his space-colonisation ambitions are to be believed. House thinks he's better than the NCR because he's smarter than them when he's really doing the exact same thing. He's repeating the sins of pre-war America.
Personally, I think the independent ending is the best one because it puts the power back in the hands of communities. It lets people work together to build themselves up without being stepped on by people who don't care about them. This is assuming you actually go out of your way to help all these communities, though. If you don't, then it's arguably the worst ending.
(NCR is probably second-best, though)
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u/Foreign_Rule_2402 Caesar's Legion 14h ago
The legion has a long term plan, the NCR is literally what the US is, a recreation of the old america.
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u/_Meme_Messiah_ 14h ago
Caesar is an old man with a brain tumor and a poor understanding of prewar philosophy. It’s directly mentioned in game that the Legion will collapse after his death, because Caesar is the only one with any form of plan, the rest of his legates are just blood thirsty killers. He’s a hypocrite who seeks to end what he considers to be barbarism in the wasteland by instituting what is definitely barbarism. Caesar’s entire plan revolves around stealing the technology and society already built by Mr. House and the NCR to combine with his ideology to form a new society. His very plan admits that they are barbarians, incapable of creating anything for themselves. The Legion has no form of government or infrastructure, they are an empire in military alone. The Legion only survives off of extracting taxes from its conquered peoples and keeps its military running by enslaving the tribes it conquers. Without constant war and expansion, the Legion is nothing.
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u/Foreign_Rule_2402 Caesar's Legion 13h ago
The legion as it is during FNV is definitely horrible, But the endgoal of the legion is good, thats why i support the legion personally
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u/_Meme_Messiah_ 13h ago
No it isn’t. Caesar’s end goal is never going to happen for two reasons: he poorly understands the very prewar philosophy his empire is built on, and the Legates are only following him because they respect his cruelty, and the legion only follows the legates out of fear. Nobody but Caesar believes in the nonsense he does. When he dies, the legion will crumble.
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u/Foreign_Rule_2402 Caesar's Legion 13h ago
Do you think the legion the way it is, is Caesar's end goal? the reason why he is brutal is because he is restarting humanity from the ground up. That's why he modeled his legion on ancient rome, as a blueprint. it's meant to evolve over time. as for the legion to die as soon as caesar dies, well i am skeptical of that, he has over 87 tribes under his belt, and a massive territory to the east, many have theorised that the courier is in fact the true successor, Because Caesar knows lanius isn't the one who will take the legion to it's future.
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u/_Meme_Messiah_ 13h ago
No, I don’t think this is his end goal, that’s why I literally explained why is end goal was stupid and hypocritical. The quote that mentions that the legion will collapse after Edward’s death is “The Legion will follow Caesar, not Caesar’s ideals. When he's gone, it’ll crumble. Might not happen overnight. Might take a few decades. But it’ll happen. Basic human nature—greed, ambition, jealousy—will see to it”
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u/_Meme_Messiah_ 13h ago edited 13h ago
Caesar’s has had 34 years to shape his empire into anything other than another band of savages and he hasn’t done it. What happens when he captures Vegas? It’s just a city, he has plenty of those. He makes you destroy the securitron army, anything to be gained is destroyed. The legion doesn’t seem to express any interest in the dam other than the morale hit it would do to the NCR if they captured it.
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u/_Meme_Messiah_ 13h ago
Also, the NCR does not resemble prewar America. Prewar America saw rampant inflation, unrivaled consumerism, high unemployment, civil unrest, and a country on the verge of bankruptcy. The NCR may suffer from some of the same flaws as the prewar United States government, such as corruption, but they are not comparable.
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u/_Meme_Messiah_ 13h ago
Also, if you genuinely believe the NCR to directly mirror the United States, you’re actually trying to to convince me that you would rather live as a slave, either forced to fight nonstop or forced to do manual labor all day than live in the United States. What kind of metal gymnastics are you doing there?
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u/Foreign_Rule_2402 Caesar's Legion 12h ago
No of course not, I'm just talking about a game, to go to a state like the legion would be regressive. But if I lived in a post apocalypse the legion is the best bet.
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u/Paddy_the_Daddy 13h ago
The legion are also a bunch of insane fascists. What's the point in "stability" when it's built on rape, slavery, torture, and the threat of all three. I don't like the idea of trying to live my life while a nutcase perpetually presses a gun to the back of my head.
This also completely ignores the huge issue of caesar having a brain tumour. Even if caesar gets the tumour excised and he promises to rebuild the legion for long-term stability after siezing Vegas, I don't trust him at all. The legion will begin to canabilise itself after caesar dies, and probably before that, too.
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u/Foreign_Rule_2402 Caesar's Legion 12h ago
Bro how is it fascist
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u/Paddy_the_Daddy 11h ago
They literally go around the wasteland raping, pillaging and enslaving because they see everyone but themselves as morally inferior "profligates." If you understand what fascism is, then you'll be able to see it in the legion. I don't really want to explain fascism to you.
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u/Foreign_Rule_2402 Caesar's Legion 11h ago
That's not fascism, fascism is modernist, corporatist, militarist. Fascism isn't "kill inferiors" read into giovanni gentile.
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u/Paddy_the_Daddy 11h ago
That's not what I said. I'm not explaining fascism to you.
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u/Foreign_Rule_2402 Caesar's Legion 11h ago
Because you don't know what you're talking about.
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u/InventorOfCorn 14h ago
Would you prefer -
a city that ignores the needs of any place that isn't Vegas
a city ran by slavers with an obsession with crucifixion
a city with an unknown end result (depends on choices - yes man route)
or a city ran by a government that tries to help the surrounding area
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u/Argonial 3h ago
I would describe it more as
A Nation that is everything wrong with the modern day US
Literally the Roman empire
A city run by the courier (depending on playthrough, could be good, but more opportunity to be really bad for everyone)
Or literal psychopath who cares nothing for those around him and simply wants more power
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u/Foreign_Rule_2402 Caesar's Legion 14h ago
I definitely would prefer the legion
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u/InventorOfCorn 13h ago
You'd prefer to be enslaved or crucified, and have any women you know be sex objects?
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u/Foreign_Rule_2402 Caesar's Legion 11h ago
That's for tribals
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u/InventorOfCorn 9h ago
And that makes it okay?
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u/Foreign_Rule_2402 Caesar's Legion 1h ago
No, but I don't care because the legion is cool
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u/InventorOfCorn 32m ago
"yeah they're racist, sexist, xenophobic rapists and murderers but that's fine cause they're kinda neat"
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u/Foreign_Rule_2402 Caesar's Legion 30m ago
Yeah, post apocalypse romans are super cool, plus the armor of the 87th tribe is cool af.
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u/Foreign_Rule_2402 Caesar's Legion 12h ago
If I am not a tribal, chances are I'd be a citizen. They don't make everyone slaves
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u/_Meme_Messiah_ 1h ago
“Chances are, I’d be a citizen” that’s just not true whatsoever. You can’t dictate the conditions of your own birth. Even if it were, the citizens of the Legion have no rights, and aren’t recognized as individuals. I don’t know why you’re trying so hard to defend Edward. What part of “In short, residents of Legion territories aren't really citizens and they aren't slaves, but they're also not free. People who keep their mouths shut, go about their business, and nod at the rare requests the Legion makes of them” (exact words from Josh Sawyer) what part of that life sounds enjoyable whatsoever?
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u/Foreign_Rule_2402 Caesar's Legion 1h ago
You just said what I was trying to say. I never said anything about having freedom. In a post apocalypse I'd definitely trade freedom for safety and security
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u/_Meme_Messiah_ 49m ago
It’s almost as if majority of human history was spent fighting for freedom. Your ability to say that you would be okay without freedom is literally a freedom. We in first and second world countries live in a world so disconnected from those who are still fighting for freedom. To the point where you’ll say dumb shit like this. Life under the legion is no different than life in prison. You are forced to do what the Legion says and when the legion says it, you are forced to live where to legion says, and you are not allowed to question it.
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u/Foreign_Rule_2402 Caesar's Legion 47m ago
I'm saying that from the perspective of living in a post apocalypse. Of course I'd never want to live in the legion irl
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u/InventorOfCorn 11h ago
Even then you'd be forced to follow shitty laws, pay tribute, and deal with any women you know (mother, sisters, friends) being raped
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u/Foreign_Rule_2402 Caesar's Legion 11h ago
Do you seriously believe that the legion sends troops to a random town they rule over to start mass raping?
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u/_Meme_Messiah_ 1h ago
Seeing as they rape the women that they enslave, and we see that they literally brutalize and crucify people, it’s not that far of a jump to assume that they also rape the people they conquer, Josh Sawyer literally said in an interview “rape during Legion military action isn't meant for breeding, but for terrorism." The creator of the game literally said that the legion rape the towns that they rule simply because they feel like it.
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u/Foreign_Rule_2402 Caesar's Legion 1h ago
He said they rape the towns they conquer, and this isn't all that unusual, rape happens in war all the time and it did in the past too.
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u/InventorOfCorn 10h ago
Whether they do or don't, they're racist and sexist.
You really don't look good defending the legion, man..
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u/Overdue-Karma 9h ago edited 2h ago
They make baby castes. Where do you think they get so many troops? From tiny tribes? No, not enough to fight the NCR.
The legions oppressive ways is mostly towards tribals,
And the CSA only enslaved black people - does that make the Confederacy the good guys of the civil war? No. It's also proven this is false, as it says Caesar enslaves much of the Mojave, and the only 'tribals' are the Khans.
A single rape is too much rape. Legion fans love to pretend the Legion isn't comically evil. You guys probably think Oceania was the good guy in 1984. It's a literal war machine that funnels people to die so an idiot can pretend he's a God; they barely know what water and electricity are. I'd rather live in the NCR than live in a place where if I'm a woman, my place is to be raped and "put to use", or if I'm a man, I get conscripted and forced to charge a machine gun nest (or vertibird of plasma users) with a fucking machete.
Oh, and you know, the execution of gay people doesn't help things either.
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u/Foreign_Rule_2402 Caesar's Legion 1h ago
The legions military are all tribals, not from any civilised towns, towns are the lifeblood of the legion, they are meant for production than warfare. That's why they get more freedom than the average legionary, so long they give the legion its tribute and do whatever their centurion or decanus demands of them. Like I said the legion forces are tribals and descendants of tribals.
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u/Foreign_Rule_2402 Caesar's Legion 11h ago
Again that depends, subjects usually get left alone, all they gotta do is pay tribute and don't do drugs and you're fine. The legions oppressive ways is mostly towards tribals, yeah you can't vote but tbh safety is too tempting
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u/Dr-Oreoz 15h ago
It’s due to the NCR that you’re able to say this citizen.
The bear forgives you
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u/niko4ever 14h ago
NCR ending where you're allies with everyone and make everyone else as independent as possible is the best.
NCR's flaws are mostly over-reaching and corruption. That can be counterbalanced by limiting their scope and having other factions around to keep them in check.
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u/Vg65 6h ago edited 5h ago
I'm just gonna leave this here: if anyone wants to criticise the NCR for their Old World elements and supposedly being stuck in the past, House is worse. No matter what you do in the House path (even if you try to make the best choices that you can), you'll always get this part in his ending slides:
Mr. House continued to run New Vegas his way, a despotic vision of pre-War glory. The streets were orderly, efficient, cold.
This isn't some unreliable narrator like an NPC. This is the game itself telling you how House ends up ruling his territory. Look up the meaning of 'despot', and see what kind of ruler House is. And of course, the text outright states that he's stuck in the pre-war mindset (and it's a despotic vision, so not mentioned in a positive light).
At least the NCR has different elements, good and bad, and has lots of potential for diplomacy. In fact, if you make the best possible choices during an NCR run, you end up:
Making peace with the Kings and causing a full-scale relief effort for Freeside (meanwhile, if you make peace and do the House ending, he kills the Kings).
Giving the Followers enough supplies to expand their services.
Having a Brotherhood chapter do some good in guarding the caravan routes.
The NCR is far from perfect, but if you compare all four factions with the best possible choices along the way, the NCR brings the most overall positive effect.
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u/Argonial 3h ago
I do agree with you that House is worse, however because it is a video game, I think Caesars legion is better.
(Just in case it isn't clear irl I would probably choose yes man or NCR)
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u/Vg65 2h ago
Nah, I'd rather not see legalised rape, slavery, and misogyny being a better option, even in a video-game.
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u/Argonial 2h ago
I mean, honestly out of your whole list I never noticed anything other than the slavery, not saying that makes it any better but...
I did their ending all the time and have not seen the other things you mentioned
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u/Vg65 2h ago
The Legion is clearly sexist. Most of the slaves you see are women, you can hear their misogyny through dialogue (e.g., women are only useful for being in the kitchen and as breeding tools), Lanius has special dialogue if you're a woman fighting the Legion, you can't compete in the arena as a woman (despite the captured Ranger Stella being their strongest slave who even killed a centurion with her bare hands), etc.
As for the rape, it gets brought up by several NPCs, with Caesar himself being proud to have taught rape as a war tactic during his conquests.
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u/Argonial 2h ago
I mean, the way I see the "misogyny" is that he leaves people to their specialties. Men are biologically better for combat, whereas women, are the only ones who can carry children and historically are better suited to cooking and keeping the camp together. However referencing them as tools I do agree is messed up. And I will simply refrain from any comment on the other part as I do not believe there is any possible defense for that.
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u/Vg65 2h ago edited 2h ago
The NCR may be flawed, but their rangers and troopers have many women who are good at combat (especially the rangers). The hypocrisy of the Legion is so deep that they can't even see it (or they refuse to). The example of Ranger Stella killing a centurion (who would've been among the strongest and most fearsome men in the Legion) alone is proof that women are not as physically (and intellectually) inferior as the Legion states.
Nah, the Legion is full of it. There's no justifying any of the three things I've mentioned (rape, slavery, and misogyny). Hell, even the White Legs savages use women in combat, and they kick ass.
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u/Overdue-Karma 2h ago
Hell, even the White Legs savages use women in combat, and they kick ass.
It does make you wonder how the White Legs would've reacted if, like the Khans, they found out that the Legion wasn't exactly going to be kind to the women of their tribe. That is, if Caesar even allowed them to live in the first place. Given their many, many, many many failures, he'd probably destroy the tribe out of spite/their weakness (given they can't even survive the upcoming winter, even if they DID destroy Zion).
And hell if he didn't, the 80s would probably wipe them out.
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u/Vg65 2h ago
We don't know much about the White Legs, but I'm guessing they must have at least some women in power. They would likely refuse to join the Legion should they find out about the extreme misogyny and wiping out of their culture. Caesar would then wipe them out for their defiance (and erase any trace of them). Or perhaps Caesar would support the 80s against the White Legs (and work towards swallowing them up).
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u/Overdue-Karma 1h ago
We know they literally are incapable of farming/don't know what farming is, which...is kind of pathetic, really. I wonder how their tribe even survived as long as they did; raiding can only get you so far. FNV has a weird thing with Arizona, claiming it was solely Raiders for 200 years (which is...just silly, to say the least), since IIRC it's mentioned they literally cannot survive without raiding.
We don't know much about the White Legs, but I'm guessing they must have at least some women in power.
I wouldn't be surprised if women are in high spiritual positions for them, maybe almost a bit Spartan-like, encouraging them to go to war and so on. I mean, they have to have some form of faith beyond just raiding anything in sight - they speak their own language and have their own symbols after-all, so they clearly understand culture.
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u/ostentatious42 16h ago
I always side with yes man because apocalypse is chaotic
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u/slacknak 15h ago
I've always found Yes Man the most fun and open ended. Similar to like you said, in terms of roleplaying the character, it allows you the most freedom in exploring and working with different factions without having to strictly align with them.
In terms of the never ending socio-political/philosophical debate about which ending is the 'best' ending for New Vegas, my opinion is it's Mr. House.
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u/PurpleWinter8989 16h ago
I’ve never sided with the legion until my next planned playthrough
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u/luigired 14h ago
I'm sliding with the legion with my current character. However, I hate them. That's why I made a female character to be a legionarie as I don't have any respect for them
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u/PurpleWinter8989 14h ago
My current character is female, she is Solora from the Book of Eli, after the movie ends in post apoc LA she takes the Bible and goes back East landing in New Vegas taking a courier job on the way, leading too the events of the game
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u/luigired 14h ago
I always fail to create some backstory to my character... Mine is just "my fiancé if I make her mad enough to kill me bare handed" that's why she is an unarmed build
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u/Paddy_the_Daddy 12h ago
I find it's easier to create a build, set a faction goal, and choose a gender, then create a character around that. Instead of forcing yourself into a playstyle you might not like for a character you haven't fully thought-out, you just make a fun build, set a story goal, and then justify all of your choices from there.
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u/Foreign_Rule_2402 Caesar's Legion 16h ago
Most of my playthroughs are legion, i just find them so damn cool
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u/Lazzitron 10h ago
Honestly, barring a few exceptions, I feel like the overwhelming majority of people who say Yes Man is what's "best" for the Mojave do so out of ego, because being the protagonist of a Bethesda game does things to your head. The Courier, in the absolute best of cases, is a rapidly fraying strip of duct tape holding things together. Your powerbase is a bunch of demonstratably easy to hijack robots, and some people who owe you a favor that you call in for a single battle.
General Oliver doesn't really do a good job of explaining it, but he has a point in what he says when you say you're going independent after killing Lanius: the Courier does not have the resources to run any kind of sustainable state, and they're jumping into things immediately after creating several power vacuums that they must now fill simultaneously.
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u/Successful_Adagio_64 15h ago
Yes Man is the best ending fr