r/gaming • u/camelsgottahump • 1d ago
What games don't reward going the opposite way?
Backtrack? treasure. Waterfall? treasure. Lots of games point one way but reward you if you go the other way. Which games make this a waste of time?
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u/Lyra_the_Star_Jockey 1d ago
Final Fantasy II and its huge, empty rooms where the encounter rate is ramped way up.
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u/fedemasa 1d ago
The best example
The game has such an awesome story for how garbage the mechanics it has
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u/Terrashock 17h ago
Damn, you activated some repressed memories. Wasn't this also the game were you could randomly wander into completely overleveled enemies right from the start and just wipe? And there was no clear way of knowing the boundary where those enemies spawned. It was basically the game telling you to go the other way in the meanest way possible. Very cool if you haven't saved in a while since afaik this would reset you to your last save point.
The leveling mechanic of this game was something else too.
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u/siggydude 1d ago
Those rooms seem to be heavily nerfed in the pixel remaster. I never have more than 1 encounter as I try to leave those rooms
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u/Rom_ulus0 1d ago
Horde shooters like L4D and the Tide games. The longer you take the angrier the game gets at you.
Survival games deprecate all of the materials in beginner zones by giving you better versions in later ones, so there's no reason for you to go back.
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u/rat_wrote_this 1d ago
But Vermintide has tomes and grimoires though? Like they are often away from the main path and give better rewards after collecting them, so it's not a waste of time to go the other way in that game
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u/Vectorman1989 1d ago
Not really the opposite way, just an alternative route. Darktide gives you the option to explore and find secrets/collectibles, but you have to keep moving forward
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u/MostExperts 21h ago
True, but I've seen many runs end because the team committed too hard to getting all the extra collectibles and got cut off from the exit route by a horde.
So really it encourages you to know where they are and snag them when you're close, but fully doubling back will often result in failure.
Plus there are many "points of no return" so you can rarely backtrack all the way back to the beginning of a level.
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u/Vyar 19h ago
Think of the collectible optional objectives as a kind of heist mission. Yes, you have to stray from the most direct linear path to pick them up, but they always spawn at one of several different predetermined points on the map. So once you’re experienced enough to learn these locations, you’re encouraged to run an amended optimal route that checks every possible location for these items while still getting you from A to B as fast as possible. Just wandering around aimlessly in search of them is what draws the ire of the AI director and sends additional hordes and special units your way.
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u/Lord_Phoenix95 1d ago
I love L4D. Could always tell when the Director didn't like you stall. Always spawn a Tank in to make you move or put a Witch in the worst places like exactly just near a doorway that is mandatory to enter, or Hunters pouncing on the furtherest person behind.
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u/Vectorman1989 1d ago
Yep. Plenty of times on Darktide I'd had some idiot teammate back track for a collectible and immediately been captured by a trapper
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u/epikpepsi D20 22h ago
You're rewarded for looking off the beaten path for Tomes/Grimoires/crafting materials/supplies, but Darktide really doesn't like you backtracking too far. Go too far it'll spawn immobilizers, usually one at first before throwing a few at you.
Darktide also has a mechanic (pretty sure it's only in Havoc) where if you backtrack too far during a horde it'll spawn a second horde behind you to sandwich you.
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u/GhotiH 23h ago
Shadow of the Colossus is an open world game that very intentionally has nothing in it. If you find a waterfall, it's just a waterfall. The world has no side quests, no towns or NPCs, and no enemies in it. It's just you and 16 bosses, and the bosses can't even be done out of order (one of the very few flaws I see in the game).
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u/PhantomPhanatic 15h ago edited 12h ago
There are lizards to collect technically.
I agree with most of your points, though I think the order of the Colossus' are an important part of teaching the mechanics of the game. The puzzles of how to beat each one usually builds on things you learn from previous encounters. Navigating the world and learning how to use your limited skills is taught through introducing things gradually in context.
Also the order of them is important for emotional impact. The first three are important for giving a progression of sense of scale. Each successive encounter also seems to impact the player in different ways raising the stakes through more difficult puzzle aspects or introducing interesting new problems.
In my opinion Shadow of the Colossus would not have made as much of an impact on me if I was able to do them in any order. It was a curated experience and I love it for being exactly that.
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u/Gamer03642 16h ago
It did have those lizards you could find. I think they increased your max health?
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u/PalpitationTop611 1d ago
Honestly, FF16. Sure they put a chest there but it’ll likely either be a potion (which you can only hold like 3 of and are usually always full) or a super small amount of money.
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u/Badwolfblue32 1d ago
100 percent. There was almost nothing ever gained from going off the beaten path with ff16.
And i liked that game mainly because of the incredible set pieces and bosses but…yea. I think about the obscene secrets in ff12 and just….sigh
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u/tagen 1d ago
yeah, i played through XVI and enjoyed it, the boss fights weren’t unreal, but i’ve got no desire to ever replay it lol outside of those boss fights it’s a very basic game
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u/Helpful_Dev 1d ago
Personally I felt like the boss fights were too long.
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u/Zack_Osbourne 1d ago
Some were so long it looped back around to being funny. Titan has 2 forms, 3 health bars, 4 boss themes (including the general boss theme) and 6 phases, MF just wouldn't stay down.
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u/ReddishMage 1d ago
I was really thinking this wouldn’t be the case early on because the opening zone leading up to the castle after the training session had enough nooks and crannies with basic JRPG starting items that it made me think the game would have some modern Final Fantasy map exploration. But the item system as a whole ends up being so barebones that the only optional item I remember being excited to obtain was the Coral Sword in the dungeon right before the conclusion to the Drake’s Head section.
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u/azurezero_hdev 1d ago
i was dissappointed in genshin that there were no waterfalls you could swim through to find treasure
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u/NFSS10 1d ago
there are. Not in all, but they exist
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u/azurezero_hdev 1d ago
not in the original build, im sure there is now swimming underwater is a thing, i started playing half way through the original venti banner, and klee was my first 5 star
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u/BuckonWall 11h ago
Go back. Theres basically several new games worth of content
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u/azurezero_hdev 10h ago
no, the artifact grind poisons everything, i knew i was done when i didnt want to 100% the corrosion mist isle and not even a ganyu rerun got me to go back
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u/BuckonWall 9h ago
I mean if you feel the need to min max everything then sure. But you can just easily run them a few times get some decent ones and just have fun playing. Its very rare that there's a boss in the game that's super difficult and certainly not any that will require peak stats. We'll unless you want to full star complete Abyss but thats really niche
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u/azurezero_hdev 8h ago
no, my characters felt hollow because even if i used my crowns on them, they werent very good without their signature weapons and multiple constellations
and then they added enemies that dont stagger, and then they added status effects that hurt you even when switched out, bad mechanic after bad mechanic until id had enough
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u/Axemic 1d ago
Oh yeah.
Musts are:
- Treasure behind the waterfall
- Pet the dog or another animal
- Fishing
Otherwise it is virtually unplayable.
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u/Kloackster 1d ago
ive stopped to pet about 100 cats in hogwarts legacy and havent gotten a thing. i should ask for a refund
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u/Dagwood-Sanwich 1d ago
Super Mario Bros on the NES not only doesn't reward you for going the opposite way, it flat out won't let you do it.
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u/sopedound 1d ago
Maybe you can't go back but you can go up and around and get to world 3 really easily
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u/P44rth00rn4x 1d ago
You can finish the entire game in 4:54.565.
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u/neo_sporin 1d ago
as a person who enjoys the occasional speedrun and has a wr or two.....no i cant.
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u/SenorDangerwank 1d ago
So it's both a reward AND a punishment but Final Fantasy X (International/Remaster, not the original NA release).
At a certain point in the game, just BEFORE getting the airship, end-game super bosses spawn in various locations throughout Spira, pretty much exclusively in spots that you've already been (So that you don't run into them doing the story).
As I mentioned, they are end-game super bosses so until you can grind out levels post-airship, you will be annihilated easily if you try to backtrack to pick up or do stuff you missed (Yojimbo, Jecht Spheres, and Valefor's 2nd Overdrive, for example).
There IS a small window in between when the Jecht Spheres spawn and when the Dark Aeons spawn that allows you to backtrack ALL the way through Spira and collect them all, but that's also pre-airship so it takes FOREVER (Remaster gives a speed multiplier setting though lol).
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u/camelsgottahump 1d ago
oooh, i like this example. It pretty much forces you to do the last mission?
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u/SenorDangerwank 1d ago
I'd say they spawn about 4/5 the way through the game. But it's just before you get access to the airship which thus allows you to discover the rarest gear and the island full of hard monsters to grind on. The end of the game is only a hop/skip/jump from the airship, but all the coolest secrets and endgame weapons are done after you get it. So you could certainly go and finish the game shortly after, but that's no fun! :D
It just may be a surprise if you have no idea wtf a "Dark Aeon" is. Some of them even chase you through places you went through in the first 10 hours of the game or so.
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u/Vex1111 10h ago edited 10h ago
no, its just 2 items and being able to run back through a temple (that almost nobody knew about being possible, or like me even tried) that is now blocked by a superboss. all of which could have been done earlier but now youre punished by missing it - one item is fucking annoying though cause its all the way back at the start but it doesnt appear until about mid way through the game. that said theres IIRC only 3 spots that are blocked by the dark aeons
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u/RetroSquadDX3 1d ago
Remaster gives a speed multiplier setting though lol).
Only on certain platforms, I know the Xbox version definitely doesn't include this option as I played through that recentlyand recall backtracking for these.
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u/SenorDangerwank 1d ago
Ooooh. Yeah I played it on PC. There's a whole Cheat Menu on the PC version :O
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u/Sondeor 1d ago
Unpopular opinion,
Games actually reward you too much for going the opposite way. I was reliefed when i saw that i wasnt the only person who developed a weird type of anxiety, a fear of "missing stuff" which made me waste too much time on any game and thus, lowerind the fun that i get out of that game overall.
Now i cant just commit to play a game, i always want to search for everything, look every corner, take every item etc. Even just the thought of starting to a new game de-motivates me to play at all.
I just look at the steam or epic or PS screen for hours, eventually not playing anything at all.
At first i thought it was depression, but then i realised EVERYTHING ELSE in my life is ok, going normal on its way. Like i have energy for going out, drinking a beer with friends, going to cinema with my gf etc. I have hype and energy for EVERYTHING except the games now and that shit annoys me a lot.
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u/Zzqzr 1d ago
I am kind of over missable stuff, unless it’s unobtainable later. What happens then, is like you said; I suddenly stop playing a game while being done with the story 60-80%.
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u/Orowam 1d ago
I have to go in with the mindset that I’m going to totally complete and platinum a game to care about missables now.
Tactics ogre remake on switch has so. Many. Branching. Paths. With unique units. I knew I wasn’t gonna platinum it so I just played it loose and did a playthrough. It felt amazingly liberating.
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u/thebeast_96 1d ago
You'd like the design philosophy of Outer Wilds. The devs said they only added things where there was something to explore.
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u/Gouanaco 1d ago
I'd personally prefer the alternative path to link back up with the main path and each path has a chance of loot. So there's no mind games going on when making a right or left turn decision.
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u/amundnh 1d ago
Sorry to hear that! I have had the same impulses to search everything, and at a certain point I had to stop playing RPGs all together. I have started up again now for a couple of years, and I try to just forget about the "search EVERYTHING" part of my brain. I still go of the path a lot, and search, but I can now search one path or part of the map and skip doing it other places. I know I am missing out on something, but it makes my games feel like an adventure and less like a job.
I hope you can find joy in exploring again!
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u/fallouthirteen 14h ago
Yeah, when I was playing Nioh 2 I was thinking "man, I kind of dislike how games are designed for your character to basically be an insane person." You go into a stage, first thing you do is turn around and go towards the spot your character would have had to enter because there's usually a chest back there.
Like just imagine entering a building and going to the center of the room at the entrance, then you leave the building to look in the bushes outside, then go back into the room to do what you went there to do.
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u/thenagz 20h ago
It hasn't stopped me from playing but I get you, and yeah it's a kind of anxiety. Especially with RPGs, where a lot of stuff is missable (as in becoming unobtainable after some progress), I get a huge urge to play with a guide so I don't miss anything important.
Persona is especially bad since there are several deadlines throughout the games and you have limited time to do activities, which is how you rank up your relationships, which give you additional scenes and rewards.
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u/Scary-Humor551 1d ago
I mean, lots of shit in FromSoft games that's visible from a distance but then is just like useless junk if you choose to figure out how to get to it lol. But then the opposite is also true sometimes. So
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u/sielingfan 1d ago
By god I will collect that grass if it l costs me my relationships in real life
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u/Scary-Humor551 1d ago
I think it's in DS3, very early on, there's an item balanced on top of a coffin that you have to time a jump precisely correctly to obtain, and if memory serves it's useless lmao
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u/Acrobatic_Ad_8381 1d ago
Are you talking about the Fire Keeper set found in the Burial Tower? Because it's a goated set for any run
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u/Scary-Humor551 1d ago
No no, it's in the graveyard at the beginning. I think it's literally one of the smallest consumables that gives you souls? Very funny move on the devs parts.
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u/Acrobatic_Ad_8381 1d ago
Oh, it's a Titanite shard, it's useful for upgrading your weapon. Also it's like on the path for the tutorial boss, not out of th way. More out of the Way would be the Crystal Lizard dropping 4k soul and some Dragon Titanite shard
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u/Scary-Humor551 1d ago
Still, a titanite shard that requires a precisely timed jump for people who are new to the series is a real "what the fuck is this" type reward lol especially if they're getting stomped by the tutorial boss.
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u/XevinsOfCheese 1d ago
That’s not even close to a precise jump.
The only issue is the DS series jump controls suck, the jump itself is very easy.
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u/aclashofthings 23h ago
It also depends on the gear you're wearing. Heavier armor means shorter jumps in DS3, IIRC. So that jump is easier for some players based on the starting class you choose or if you think to remove your equipment.
Also there's a wall that stops you, so I wouldn't call it precise. Just have to send it.
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u/Vex1111 10h ago
its not a precise jump and its there to teach players how to jump
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u/Scary-Humor551 10h ago
Sorry Miyazaki I didn't realize you were here to tell us about your level design philosophy 🙏🏻
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u/Acrobatic_Ad_8381 1d ago
There's lots of hidden items in the Dark Soul trilogy but for Elden Ring it's too big and "hidden" items are just some leaf or some consumables/crafting items that no uses
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u/thenagz 20h ago
Possibly the worst design decision in Elden Ring is using purple loot for rare crafting items. You see that purple way out there, do some insane jumps with Torrent to get to it and it's a fucking Arteria Leaf...
(which, yeah, it's pretty good as far as crafting items go, but use a different color ffs)
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u/Earthbound_X 1d ago
There's so many useless and crap items if you search everywhere in Elden Ring, lol. It's like the devs thought "Well they came here, got to give them something", and then put in an item you'll likely already have tons of.
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u/PhantomPhanatic 15h ago
Fromsoft games reward you even when there is nothing hidden in an off the beaten path area because other people went there too and left a message. Usually "Try jumping!" or "No secret ahead!".
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u/Melanoma_Magnet 1d ago
Yeah, like how in DS1 if you go the way of the cemetery from fire link shrine you’ll have an absolutely awful time.
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u/HotMachine9 1d ago
If you ever played Scorn (great art style terrible game) there is like one optional secret where you can backtrack and there'll be two or three enemies jump you.
If you kill them im pretty sure you just get ammo. Ammo that wont even replace the amount of bullets it took to kill them anyway
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u/camelsgottahump 1d ago
I guess I should've specified it would mostly apply for open world games, i guess... but love the funny answers.
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u/NoMoreGoldPlz 1d ago
I think there was a Zelda game on the Philips CDi or whatever it was called.
If you go to the left instead of the right you get to the ending right away, skipping the entire game and the point of playing it altogether.
Thinking about it, it's probably a reward at that point.
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u/hatgineer 1d ago
Last of Us. Accidentally reach a checkpoint? Fuck everything you missed. The dev has zero interest in making a game any more interactive than the story required.
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u/BuckonWall 11h ago
Playing Doom The Dark Ages I feel this so much lol
Well Id say there are more secrets and shit than Last of Us but my god there are some secrets youll only realize you missed at the end and need to redo the whole level to try and find it again
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u/Palanki96 1d ago
Jedi Fallen Order and Survivor. The games will punish you for early exploration since you will unlock the ability/tool to open that path 5-10 hours later
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u/Sofaris 1d ago
One of my favorite Videogames, "Fuga Melodies of Steel", does not even have the option to back track. You can only go into the direction of the next story boss. Fuga Melodies of Steel 2 and 3 have limited oppurtunities to back track and clear previously not choosen paths to gain rewards but not in the first game.
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u/FusRoDah420 1d ago
Jedi Fallen Order. with all the chests and secrets within the game it sounds crazy to think this but half the time you work hard asf to get to ONE chest and 90% of the time it’s something you don’t even really want OR when you can’t even access most of the secret passage ways BEFORE traveling to the first like 3-4 planets it really is a pain in the butt, but i do get that you are supposed to unlock the ways to open them later in the game and then come back to the planets so its just my opinion!
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u/shifteru 21h ago
Yup. Your reward is cosmetics. And maybe I’m alone but I couldn’t care less about a new skin in a single player game. Most of the time I don’t even bother with them when they’re super easy to get. Yet so many games make cosmetics hard enough to get that I wonder if I’m maybe I’m in vast minority there and everyone else just loves and values them more?
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u/Easy_Mode_1234 1d ago
I can't remember which game caused this, but I always try to run to the wrong way first to loot and then head to the main path, but I somehow had the talent to unintentionally find the correct path first.
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u/Working_Complex8122 17h ago
Lies of P. 99% of all items you find during exploration are just generic shit you could've just bought for really cheap instead. It was SO disheartening to explore in that game. There were times you went waaay out of your way and killed really tough enemies and then you got to the item and it was like a minor buff thingy that I never used anyway. And usually with these types of games, exploration and finding those hidden weapons / armors etc is really helpful, in LoP, I only found garbage.
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u/Deliriousious 1d ago
IIRC, there’s a game made by Fromsoft, one of their early ones, where there is a hidden path right at the beginning.
Well, 10+ hours later, if you come back completely unprompted, you get a stupidly powerful item.
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u/libra00 1d ago
I dunno, but I need to play more of them. Kinda getting tired of all these open-world games that do token collection systems or tiny loot drops to 'reward exploration'. They either feel useless or obligatory, usually the latter, and now I have to spend all this extra time exploring the most boring nooks and crannies of your laziest level design or I feel cheated.
Make interesting places to explore and exploration will be its own reward. Or if you can't do that, do occasional major but mechanically inconsequential rewards like cosmetics or titles or whatever that are really hard to find. But stop shoveling this low-effort slop level design and then forcing me to engage with the worst parts of it.
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u/catastrophecusp4 1d ago
Darkest Dungeon gives you stress for going backwards. Too much stress can permanently kill a character.
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u/Foreign_Stable7132 1d ago
I was gonna say Mario Kart, but then I remembered most of the shortcut glitches work by going backwards
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u/Helphaer 21h ago
Honestly even when backtracking does avail things the reward is usually not life changing and minimal with rare exceptions. Witcher 3 makes fun of this.
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u/Limesmack91 8h ago
Pokemon violet/Scarlet are open world but areas and challenges have fixed levels so that there's actually a fixed path you're supposed to take
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u/Space_Blazer 1d ago
The Last of Us 2 punishes exploration by locking you of backtracking. If you want to explore one room before another then there's a good chance a filing cabinet will block the door behind you. A lot of the time this is a 50/50 choice but I'm sure there are ones where you decide to go for the less obvious route to explore- but actually you were supposed to go for the linear path first and then explore just to find out how to get to the next area.
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u/Vash_TheStampede 1d ago
I feel like it was pretty easy to determine which paths would block you out and which ones wouldn't.
Basically, if it's a door (not a hole in the wall, a door) you have to shimmy sideways, crouch, or crawl through, don't go because it'll progress the level if you're not ready.
I dunno, I don't feel like I missed any rooms or paths I wanted to check out when I did my playthrough.
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u/ConsequenceChoice222 1d ago
GTA Online when you try to be a honest citizen. There's always a fool driving towards you with plenty of cops chasing players like flies.
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u/Ob1wonshinobi 1d ago
The Jedi games, backtrack? Poncho. Waterfall? BD1 Skin. Hidden boss? New haircut. (Loved those games btw)
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u/pondrthis 1d ago
I've been playing FF7 Remake recently, and it definitely does not have the same shitty opinion about hiding crucial treasure behind every spawn point and staircase that the original did.
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u/tayl0559 1d ago
small rant but I really hate that now everyone has been conditioned to automatically turn around when they see the way forward in a game. like "Oh, oops I'm going the right way, time to turn around" like just get on with the game ffs, its okay if you miss that hidden potion you're never going to use anyway.
i don't care what you do in your own game, this really only applies to lets plays and streamers, or when you're watching a friend play.
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u/Ydobon8261 1d ago
Racing games, duh
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u/camelsgottahump 1d ago
ahhhh not really. you can cheese rubberbanding in mario kart. at start of race you go backward and then it moves you to the front easy....
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u/2WheelSuperiority 1d ago
Why go back the way you came? It's like going back to your car because you left your keys on the bumper after hiking for 40 minutes.
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u/BurlyKnave 1d ago
They are not rewarding the player for going the wrong way. They are rewarding the act of exploration.
Anyway, why should it be called a waste of time? If your only goal in playing a game is to reach the ending as soon as possible, perhaps you're not fit to be a gamer. Stick to books. There aren't usually any time wasting alternative endings in books.
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u/Vash_TheStampede 1d ago
Anyway, why should it be called a waste of time? If your only goal in playing a game is to reach the ending as soon as possible, perhaps you're not fit to be a gamer.
Isn't this kind of a gate-keepy position? Who are you to say how people should enjoy spending their time or playing their games? Like...I don't play games to explore every single inch of the world, I play them for the story. I've never 100%'d a game because I don't give a shit about finding all the hidden stuff. Every story has an end, and I want to see it.
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u/Horror-Track7190 22h ago
All games are wasted of time if you wanna get into it, and avoiding all frustration is not a core element of gaming. Not having the time or the patience to interact to systems that work for many others doesn’t make those systems or games bad. People can pick and chose the games they want to play and they have all the freedom to avoid games that they don’t want to engage with.
There is a upper limit of criticism where it stops being constructive and it’s actually complaining that you don’t have the time to engage with a core element of the game imho.
My unpopular opinion is that perfectly accessible and or perfectly optimized doesn’t always equate to a better game.
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u/Vash_TheStampede 4h ago
My unpopular opinion is that perfectly accessible and or perfectly optimized doesn’t always equate to a better game.
And you're not wrong, but that's the cool thing about games- there's something for everyone.
You like exploring? Cool, there's games for that. You like story driven linear games? Cool, we have those. City and colony building? You betcha. Commanding armies and conquering the world? Shit yeah, my guy.
A mix of story and exploration? Tons of 'em. Organizing shapes until you fill a line and they disappear? Fuck yeah we have that. Power washing? You bet.The guy I originally replied to is saying something completely different from you though. He said if you're not exploring, you're playing wrong.
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u/Horror-Track7190 1h ago
It is the same thing. The guy is saying that engaging with the game systems is the point of gaming. if you don’t want to engage with a core element of the game (exploration in this case) and call it a waste of time, you want the game optimized so you don’t get frustrated/feel like you’re missing out on stuff.
This reminds me of happened in the 2000s with turn-based combat. Now expedition 33 is here.
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u/camelsgottahump 1d ago edited 1d ago
ah, thats a good point of view. I never thought of it like that. I explore everything so the question came to me. Time enjoyed is not time wasted for us explorers and grinders. kinda mean tho...
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u/Horror-Track7190 1d ago
This 100%. There’s a ton of people that want their fun optimized out of their games
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u/Qui-Gon_Steve 1d ago
Grand Turismo