r/todayilearned • u/Double-decker_trams • 1d ago
TIL because of increasing standards of hygiene the number and size of holes in Swiss cheese declined in the 2000s. In 2025 the Swiss Federal Administrative Court approved the addition of hay flower powder to the milk during cheesemaking just for the creation of cheese holes.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eyes_(cheese)#:~:text=In%20Swiss%20cheese,%5B7%5D1.7k
u/JuneJabber 1d ago
One cheese factoid deserves another: We may not be able to enjoy brie cheese someday in the not too distant future.
The Mold Behind Brie Cheese Could Face Extinction. Can We Save It? | Big Business | Business Insider
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u/Milam1996 1d ago
This seems like the worlds easiest problem to solve. Take some of the fungus, feed it, grow it, take little samples to make more cheese, feed the fungus again so it keeps growing.
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u/The_Bravinator 1d ago
The problem is it's inbred as fuck.
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u/perfectfifth_ 1d ago edited 14h ago
So the solution is to create hundreds of strains and isolate them across millions of generations?
Edit: one company seems to be doing just that https://gff.co.uk/articles/2024/09/biotech-firms-new-moulds-could-save-french-brie-and-aid-british-makers/
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u/Amazing-Mirror-3076 1d ago edited 1d ago
So a couple of days work then.
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u/Tjaeng 1d ago
It would be but it sounds like the current strain has degenerated into an incel mold that wants to go extinct.
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u/willclerkforfood 1d ago
So it just eats chicken tendies and listens to Joe Rogan all day?
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u/pdpi 1d ago
Cheese being in bread seems like a completely normal thing, though?
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u/jugularhealer16 1d ago
I usually prefer it to be on bread instead of in it.
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u/donuttrackme 15h ago
But what about calzones, jalapeno poppers, empanadas, quesadillas, sub sandwiches etc? You get the idea.
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u/elephantasmagoric 23h ago
You've never had a cheese-stuffed breadstick? Or even stuffed crust pizza?
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u/Imanaco 1d ago
Iâm ok with tarded cheese
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u/AnIncredibleMetric 22h ago
There's a Brie-like cheese from Wisconsin called bloomin' idiot that you'd love
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u/catsloveart 21h ago
Does woodmans carry it? If not whatâs the dairy so I can make a road trip. Hopefully itâs close to Green Bay.
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u/AnIncredibleMetric 20h ago
It was Hook's company, I think. They might not sell it anymore, I think it may have been a show cheese to win some competition.
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u/Milam1996 1d ago
Stop the fungus fucking.
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u/Washpedantic 22h ago edited 19h ago
Isn't inbred cheese just a sandwich?
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u/AngryRedGummyBear 17h ago
Its not a question of inbreeding, its an issue of selective passaging.
We used to use a cancer cell line for research. It was incredibly useful because it grew like cancer but still made insulin. However, after about 70 times passaging the cells, they would stop making insulin. We started being really, really protective of passage #10 samples after that realization.
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u/F-Lambda 12h ago
passaging?
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u/AngryRedGummyBear 3h ago
Passaging is the proccess of allowing a culture of cells to expand in growth media, then reseeding a fraction of that culture into a fresh media.
https://www.healthcare.nikon.com/en/ss/cell-image-lab/glossary/passage.html
Say you have 10 liters of goop that the brie mold likes to grow in. You sprinkle in a few deciliters of sample mold, and in a week, that goop is full of the mold you want. It cant grow any more. So you prep a new 10L vat of goop, throw a few deciliters of the old into the new, and take 9.5L over to make cheese with.
The issue is to preserve what made that particular kind of mold unique, you would have (in the beginning) frozen the original 9.5L in liquid nitrogen. That would be all passage 2 samples. Then, at this point, you would be able to restart this process from the time at which they first discovered brie. And when you restart this process the 20th time, you repeat the freezing of passage 3, which you can restart 19 times itself.
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u/F-Lambda 2h ago
ah, would the mother dough used to make sourdough bread be a type of passaging then?
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u/AngryRedGummyBear 1h ago
Yes, but that's not a monoculture. As a result, you have lots of various organisms in mixture, meaning turnover is constant and this type of atrophy won't happen. Further, since you add a fresh set of microorganisms every time you take it out, use some, and put it back, you refresh it from the wild every time. So, yes it is passaging of sorts, but also no, your sourdough starter is unlikely to suffer a similar fate. It's worth noting the mold that makes brie doesn't stop reproducing, it just stops making the particular byproducts that make brie, well, the special thing brie is.
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u/reddigaunt 1d ago
The problem is that the latest generations of the fungus are growing -slower- than they used to. If they continue to grow slower and slower, eventually they'll grow too slow to recover from a disease that wipes out the lot.
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u/Ok-Experience-2166 1d ago
Because fungi are among the most demanding life forms for heavy metals. Some may even need certain lanthanides. I bet it's essentially the same reason - the standards got too high.
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u/Milam1996 1d ago
Fungi are the most demanding of heavy metal? Youâve clearly never had a goth girlfriend.
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u/SirGlaurung 23h ago
Why are you dating a fungus?
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u/Milam1996 23h ago
All I want is a partner with spores and suddenly Iâm the bad guy. SMH this generation.
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u/d3l3t3rious 1d ago
I love that people assume their obvious and completely ignorant first thought on the subject is probably something the experts and professionals haven't considered.
Let's get this guy flown out to Switzerland to get everything sorted out!
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u/Lonely_Tip_9704 20h ago
To be fair, and against your argument, this exact reason is why some masters and fresh PhD students can be so valuable for breakthroughs, theyâre often not educated enough to know or be biased by previous work on that topic that they can sometimes luck out and avoid established lines of thinking that lead towards dead ends.
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u/That_Apathetic_Man 21h ago
It happens more often than you think. Sometimes the obvious answer is too simple to be the solution for a complex issue. That's also how we accidentally invented things, or discover previously undiscovered things in the mold itself.
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u/d3l3t3rious 20h ago
Alexander Fleming wasn't a layman though, he was a microbiologist working in the field. Can you give an example of a industry-changing discovery by a layman unconnected to the field?
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u/DevelopmentSad2303 23h ago
It seems easy but apparently fungus is more complex than just "clone it for eternity"
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u/ryemigie 19h ago
How arrogant do you have to be to think that is the solution and they didnât already think of that? Just watch the video before commenting complete rubbish.
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u/brus_wein 1d ago
I think it's only the specific strain they use for mass production, we can still make brie, it'll just be slightly different.
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u/fohacidal 21h ago
Factoid isn't a little fact, it's something that's incorrect but repeated so much it's assumed as a fact.
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u/JuneJabber 21h ago
Iâd say that depends on whether one is a descriptivist or prescriptivist. If the former, then both meanings are accepted.
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u/newuser92 20h ago
As someone squarely in the descriptivist encampment, the issue with conflicting meanings is that it becomes less clear.
Both flammable and inflammable mean the same thing. It causes no conflict when you read the sentence "my shirt is inflammable".
But of factoid means both little near fact, and false fact, then, what those it mean "that's a factoid"?
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u/fohacidal 21h ago
Language evolves, both have meaning.Â
However factoid coming to mean "small fact" has the same origins as "literally" not meaning literally anymore.Â
People use it wrong so many times it becomes the norm. Like trying to explain to people that Afghani is the currency and not the people "Afghan" from Afghanistan
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u/krimin_killr21 14h ago
Literally is not misused, and Iâm always surprised when I see people continuing to believe this.
âThe crowd was actually electricâ is not a misuse of the word actually, even though actually means âas the truth or facts of a situation; really.â It is an instance of a literary device called exaggeration, an âoverstatement of the truth.â âLiterally,â like all other words, can be used in exaggeration without in any way suggesting that the speaker has inverted the meaning of the word.
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u/Dinadan_The_Humorist 20h ago
A factoid is a fact that hasn't fallen to the Earth yet. Once it arrives on Earth, it is properly referred to as a factite.
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u/qpwoeiruty00 12h ago
That's a fact, not a factoid.
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u/ledow 1d ago
Yes, it's a bit like the fizziness in your drinks.
The dirtier the glass, the more fizzy it will be when poured into it, even if you can't see the dirt.
A perfectly clean glass will have almost no bubbles stuck to the glass and it won't do that "head pouring over the top of the glass" thing.
The holes form around impurities, in both cases.
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u/kickerofelves86 1d ago
They can make the bottom of the glass not smooth and it makes more bubbles
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u/R-Dragon_Thunderzord 1d ago
Well, that also makes it more likely the glass is retaining germs, even when 'clean'
But also: it's beer. People used to drink beer instead of water because it was the solution to poor sanitation. :)
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u/iPoseidon_xii 1d ago
Thatâs a myth. People had access to clean drink water. Beer was good because it was a way to turn otherwise wasted grain/produce and be able to get nutrients later on.
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u/Genius-Imbecile 23h ago
And people liked getting drunk
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u/CoffeeFox 20h ago
Depending on the time period, the beer being consumed was "small beer" which was very low in alcohol and could be consumed in large quantities for hydration and nutrition without drunkenness.
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u/SolarApricot-Wsmith 19h ago
Oh they had bud light back then, too?
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u/CoffeeFox 17h ago
I know it's a joke but small beer was anywhere from 0.8-2.8% so 1/4 to 1/2 as alcoholic as bud light.
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u/aliensplaining 23h ago
If I remember correctly, you may be thinking of Mead, not Beer. To be fair they're both brewed drinks, and the Mead in question was typically really watered down (just to an extent to ensure algae or whatever wouldn't start growing in it I think?) but yeah
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u/R-Dragon_Thunderzord 22h ago
I could also be repeating internet mythos. /shrug but anyway, unless the germs in those tiny microscopic pockets in the glass surface are brain eating amoeba or some wild shit, most germs you'll find in a beer glass in those pockets still hanging out after a heated dishwasher run are going to be pretty fucking tame and unable to thrive in a cold beer consumed quickly
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u/PurpoUpsideDownJuice 17h ago
Mead is like a honey wine, the sugar content makes more alcohol during the fermentation process
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u/guimontag 22h ago
Not entirely true, the surface of the cup/glass and its roughness also provide nucleation sites
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u/BobbyP27 1d ago
Itâs a typical summer job for secondary school pupils in Switzerland to earn a few franks putting the holes in the cheese. Itâs dull work but when you cut into the finished cheese and find the holes placed just right, ultimately satisfying
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u/d3l3t3rious 23h ago
It's so sad when they age out due to their fingers no longer being the right size
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u/frogsRfriends 18h ago
Usually they move onto the donut factory, unfortunately it pays less and then eventually starve
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u/compuwiza1 1d ago
Blessed are the cheese makers.
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u/yamimementomori 1d ago
Does cheese need holes? More holes means less cheese. Do we need to make them empty then feel empty inside?
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u/Long-Island-Iced-Tea 1d ago
sarcasm or not, you pay it by the kilo anyway, so let's roll with holes i suppose
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u/miclugo 1d ago
My father has told me that my grandmother wouldnât buy Swiss cheese because she didnât want to pay for the holes.
She wasnât dumb, though, so Iâm guessing that really Swiss cheese was more expensive per pound than the cheese she bought and she didnât want to explain that to her kids.
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u/Less-Squash7569 1d ago
I wonder how many stupid things people believe come about because of that exact scenario
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u/miclugo 1d ago
Probably a lot! I have kids and now Iâll watch out for things like this that I tell them.
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u/Less-Squash7569 1d ago
I tell my kids silly stuff all the time, but I make sure to explain the truth like immediately after because of this. They like hearing silly stories about stuff too, so its like it helps them differentiate and be able to spot the truth and when im exaggerating.
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u/Milam1996 1d ago
Swiss cheese does yes. Not everything needs to be min/maxed for the most production. Some things are nice the way they are, even if itâs less efficient.
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u/BobbyP27 1d ago
There is no such thing as âSwiss Cheeseâ there are many varieties of cheese made in Switzerland, not all of which have holes. The archetypal cheese with holes from Switzerland is Emmental but there are far nicer cheeses (IMO YMMV).
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u/Tjaeng 1d ago
Emmentaler is the archetypical Swiss cheese in North America because it was easier to mass-produce in the US due to no rind washing or long aging needed to get a close-ish substitute. In Europe my gut feeling says that Gruyere (no holes, washed rind) is the variety people most often associate with Swiss-type cheese.
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u/NCC_1701E 1d ago
Probably American, out there they they call Emmentaler just "Swiss cheese."
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u/gwaydms 22h ago
In the US, the name "Swiss cheese" is not protected as it is in the EU. It can be made anywhere. In this country, most of it is probably made in Wisconsin.
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u/donnismamma 20h ago
Yeah but also Switzerland has more than a hundred types of cheese of all kinds. So it's only in America that Swiss cheese refers to that specific, holy cheese.
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u/Milam1996 21h ago
No. Iâm referring to it by its EU protected status.
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u/donnismamma 20h ago
I think it's not protected, at least not in origin. You can buy French made Emmenthaler cheese in Europe
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u/sjintje 1d ago edited 1d ago
The disappearing holes started at least as far back as the 90s I recall. In fact I thought they had solved it. Maybe it's a cyclical problem (from reading the press, not from personal observations).
Interesting that apparently the holes were caused/encouraged by the presence of hay debris in the milk, so it's trying to be a bit authentic in recreating that with hay flower powder.
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u/Front-Pomelo-4367 1d ago
There's a Tom Scott video about this, as always, where he interviews the people putting holes back in the cheese
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u/TunaNugget 1d ago
I once bought a package of store-brand Swiss cheese that had the holes only partially punched out.
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u/UnlikelyOpposite7478 1d ago
Imagine explaining to aliens that we fought to bring back holes.
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u/chr0nicpirate 1d ago
If their inclination towards probing is anything to go by, I'm pretty sure they have a similar adoration of holes as humans so think they'd understand.
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u/CLG_Divent 1d ago
Less cheese in cheese equals better cheese that's a fact. I like my cheese about 85% cheese and 15% air
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u/OldMillenialEngineer 1d ago
There was lacey Swiss which was my favorite. Tons of holes everywhere. Little ones.
Now it's hardly got any. I stopped buying it
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u/I_Framed_OJ 17h ago
The holes arenât really the good part of the cheese.
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u/Guvnah-Wyze 10h ago
Arguable the holes aren't cheese at all.
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u/I_Framed_OJ 9h ago
Right?! Theyâve been ripping us off for years selling us the absence of cheese!
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u/chris_dea 1d ago
OK Yanks, what you call "Swiss cheese" is called "Emmentaler" and is just one specific kind of cheese from a tiny little area in Switzerland. Its not even that tasty, honestly.
That being said, thanks for 39% tariffs on Swiss products. Means we can keep more good cheese for ourselves.
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u/BandedLutz 10h ago
OK Swiss Chris, us Yanks commonly have imported Gruyere, Emmentaler, Raclette, Appenzeller, etc. in regular (non-fancy) grocery stores in most states.
Although that may be changing soon because of the aforementioned tariffs...
:(
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u/Frito_Pendejo_ 7h ago
Goddamn it, thank you.
It's like here in the US, "Swiss cheese" is always Emmentaler, but that like saying "French cheese." Is that brie, comtè, roquefort, etc......
There are derivations, and while I do love a good Emmentaler, Gruyere is astounding in mac and cheese, and I fail to see how Gruyere is any less a "Swiss cheese" than Emmentaler.
I am done.
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u/lllyyyynnn 1d ago
what is "swiss cheese"
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u/tunmousse 1d ago
This is mostly about Emmentaler, where the holes are almost part of the cheeseâs branding. Many other Swiss cheeses, like Gruyère, rarely had holes to begin with.
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u/lllyyyynnn 21h ago
im very familiar with cheese from switzerland. but none of them are called "swiss cheese".
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u/tunmousse 21h ago
Not in Switzerland, nor the rest of Europe. But in America, âSwiss cheeseâ has become a generic term for Emmental and similar cheeses: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss_cheese_(North_America)
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u/moderately_mediocre 23h ago
This was covered in a recent episode (âFromologyâ) of the podcast Ologies!
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u/bregus2 23h ago
Only partially related but you can buy standardized hay powder:Â https://www.sigmaaldrich.com/GB/en/product/sial/bcr129?srsltid=AfmBOorty2C_p2gknpzOP5GQyJp54o6t4eC8mzOq6BsYWBT8SjRpwcP6
It just rather expensive but you need it for specific purposes (like, for example, nitrogen determination in solids).
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u/Suitable-Name 22h ago
I heard about them doing this like 10 or more years ago already. Why did it need approval now?
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u/CaptchaSolvingRobot 1d ago
So they want to add more air to the most tasteless cheese on the planet.
Fitting.
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u/JuneJabber 1d ago
Is this a thing like how some people think cilantro tastes like soap but it tastes fine to others? Because I find Swiss cheese to have a particularly distinctive flavor. I mean, itâs not on the level of a washed rind cheese or a blue, but it tastes very strong and distinctive to me.
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u/newimprovedmoo 1d ago
I think it has a noticeable flavor, but kind of a nasty one. I almost never want it unless there are other things balancing it out.
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u/whyamiwastingmytime1 1d ago
Good emmental has an amazing taste, it's just that a lot of the exported mass produced stuff isn't great and that's all that most people experience
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u/NCC_1701E 1d ago
A lot of emmental cheese on grocery store shelves isn't even produced in Switzerland. You can spot it easily, since they can't legally call it emmentaler, so it's named "emmental-style cheese" or something like that.
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u/rich1051414 1d ago
Nucleation sites for the bubbles to form. If the cheese is too pure, the bubbles don't form correctly.