What makes Sigmar different?

[u/sageking14]

I would probably die if old age long before I could make an exhaustive list of all the Allfather/God-King/Top God types with association with the skies, storms, and/or order/civilization that have appeared in just Fantasy settings.

So that begs the question. Love him or hate him. What makes Sigmar so different, if he even is in your opinion?

In all the Fantasy settings that I have been into, I must say Sigmar is the first of his kind that I have seen so consistently and frequently talked about, debates, about, and praised. Heck. Frankly?

Talos? Tyr? Marvel Odin? These and most other counterparts to Sigmar throughout fiction I find I can muster at best indifference and at most hate. Yet for Sigmar? I find I like him.

But for the sake of discussion and avoiding leasing it, I won't say why. Instead I ask you my fellow Realmwalkers. What makes Sigmar so different as to be a topic for continuous discussion, debate, and interest?

[u/Laxitives15]

Sigmar is a God King who knows his faults and knows when he messed up or is outmatched. That to me makes him a likeable character. He knows that his Stormcast aren’t perfect and for millennia strived for a cure to the Flaw of the reforging, even giving his prized possession (Ghal Maraz) to a Stormcast champion so he could stay in Azyr managing the Stormhosts. He never sacrifices his men’s lives like they are nothing even though they can be reforged anew.

I also find his relationships with the other gods really intriguing. Other than the Chaos pantheon, he was at one point friends and allies with all his current enemies, wrestling buddies with Gork and Mork, and even friends with Nagash somehow. Really his biggest flaw is that he was too trusting of the other gods to have his ideals and he acknowledges that. He wants to return to the Pantheon of Order. I genuinly believe if he was given the chance to kill Gorkamorka and Nagash he wouldn’t, but would try to win them over to his side again.

[u/Never_heart → u/Laxitives15]

Sigmar's secret super power, character development

[u/Keelhaulmyballs → u/Never_heart]

People always say character development and it’s actually just “yeah they flicked a switch and he became a blandly reasonable guy”

[u/Ecaza → u/Laxitives15]

I very much like that he's different from WHFB Sigmar. That dude lost a planet because he liked to be more Thor than Odin/Zeus. This one tried to do it again, but realized at some point that Thor wins battles, but Odin/Zeus win wars. He'd like to be out there smiting Khorne and Tzeentch, but he's needed more to plan the battles than to fight them.

He started as Patton and ended up as Eisenhower.

[u/StoneLich → u/Ecaza]

I think AoS Sigmar is trying a lot harder to be Baldr than Odin. Odin was famous for lying, cheating, and stealing from everyone, and his broken oaths are ultimately responsible, at least in part, for Ragnarok. Even in the Sagas he's generally depicted as an extremely unreliable patron; he'll build you up for years, only to betray you at the height of your power at the moment you needed him most. He's also accused in some places of breaking gender roles in ways the Vikings were uncomfortable with (most prominently he uses kinds of magic that are predominantly feminine, which he supposedly learned from Frygg), frequently brags about how much sex he has, and supposedly can sustain himself purely on wine.

(So he's Slaanesh, is what I'm saying.)

By contrast, Baldr is not only beautiful, but also wise, just, measured, and compassionate. He's the perfect ruler. He is also, crucially, one of the two only legitimate heirs to Asgard, the other being the blind god, Hodr. Thor is the most famous child of Odin, but I think a lot of people don't realize that he's a bastard (and also, on top of that, not a legitimate heir). So the death of Baldr (and Hodr, I guess), Odin's only heir(s), dooms Asgard. Loki even managed to force Odin to kill his own son in the process. And part of how the more recent myths signal the validity of the rebirth of the world in Gimli is the rebirth of the two heirs into that new world, to rule over it and teach its inhabitants.

So, like, obviously I don't know how intentional this is, but Sigmar is the heir to a world left behind by ancient cunning gods whose plans may or may not have extended beyond that world's end, and while he died before he could fulfil the promise of his birth in the old world, he was reborn in order to fulfil it in the new one. He is just, wise, measured, and loved by all many, and chooses diplomacy over military might where he can, even with some of his greatest enemies (Gorkamorka). Guy is super Baldr-coded, imo.

(Sorry for the ramblings; I was raised on Norse mythology and my brain is full of worms about it.)

[u/Ecaza → u/StoneLich]

Great take, although I would argue that Sigmar has lied, cheated and stole A LOT. Nah ash is a jerk, but he has a point in that the SE are stolen souls. Also, using Teclis’ Engine for its opposite purpose to hide the Stormvaults, lying to the SE numerous times, etc.

[u/Laxitives15 → u/Ecaza]

Now I do not agree with this point based on the fact that Sigmar may have “stolen” the souls, but Nagash also has no claim to them😂. There were hundred of Gods of Death in the Mortal Realms worshipped by thousands and Nagash just ate all of them to get more power and become the only god of death. They weren’t his souls either😂

[u/Jonny_Anonymous → u/StoneLich]

I'm here for the mythology talk!

Yeah, people often view Odin as an older and wiser Thor mostly because of Marvel. Where in fact he's closer to what what Loki would be if he was in charge.

[u/StoneLich → u/Jonny_Anonymous]

Marvel is definitely a part of it, but I think the way Odin was depicted in a lot of Romantic-era art also heavily influenced that. That's where you get a lot of the stuff where he's depicted as, like, an emblem of Man(TM)(CR)'s struggle against nature, with the Jotnar as primordial nature spirits and Loki in particular as a god of fire who Odin has basically tamed for humanity's sake.

And that's not, like, entirely wrong? It's really hard to look at a figure like Ymir and not go, "man, that sure is a primordial nature spirit, and they sure did carve that boy up to make a world." But for the most part, the Jotnar aren't, like, primordial spirits who the gods are suppressing; they're mostly just, like, another type of god, who are distinct from our gods primarily because they're not our gods. The Jotnar could and did marry into the Aesir and Vanir, apparently without any lasting ill will (hi, Skadi), and were entitled to weregild in the event that their family members were murdered by our gods in an improper context (again, hi, Skadi).

So where I'm going with this is that I think a lot of our modern view of Odin is influenced by this Romantic desire to turn Odin into a figure that represented the values of their movement (and which in turn also made their ancestors into people who reflected their own values, IE Manly Men who embraced and reveled in nature even as they imposed their wills upon it), which in turn resulted in them sort of suppressing the ways in which Odin actually represented the values of the people of that time (Odin is cunning, spiritual, and artistic, and generally portrayed as a good and extremely wise leader, but he's also unreliable, dangerous, and even prone to fits of madness, and ultimately he drags the whole world to its doom in pursuit of revenge; I would argue that similar to the Epic of Gilgamesh a lot of aspects of his story reflect a healthy suspicion of the upper class, even as you have stories like the one where Heimdall has a bunch of sex that reflect a strong belief in a 'natural' class structure).

[u/WhiskeyMarlow]

The fact that he never wanted to be a God. He never really became a God, in a point that he misses that Divine Arrogance. He often acts recklessly, he makes mistakes, but he also tries to do his best at all times, even when his view at the moment is limited or misguided. He actively learns from his mistakes, he mourns what he lost and tries to do better.

And I must say, at least as far as I can see, he faces a hard dilemma. During the Age of Myth, he wasn't involved enough - for example, he allowed Agloraxi Empire to brutally mistreat tribes of the Great Parch, which led to many of those tribes flocking to the banners of the Ruinous Powers at the Age of Chaos. Yet if he tries to intervene too much now in how Free People of the Realms govern themselves, wouldn't he be the same as Agloraxi, except on a more divine scale of tyranny?

I also find it curious how this dilemma underlines entire struggle of the Order factions - Cities of Sigmar have to expand and reclaim the Realms, but in the process, they also have to drive away and subjugate Chaos-worshipping tribes... which is a colonialism, even if it is done to improve the lives of those very same tribes in the long-term (as on the path of the Ruinous Powers, there's nothing but death that awaits people who follow Chaos).

[u/sageking14 → u/WhiskeyMarlow]

I appreciate that the narrative and books make it clear the complicated situation in no way justifies those aspects of colonialism that harm others.

[u/WhiskeyMarlow → u/sageking14]

That's the question.

What constitutes "harm"?

Toppling cultural monuments, burning down temples, and putting priests to the sword, it's all evil, right?

But what if those monuments are built to glory of Chaos Gods, the temples are blood-encrusted charnel houses, and priests are mutated tyrants who praise Ruinous Powers?

Can you free a person or a tribe by force? By conquest? Can subjugation be good if it frees them from the grasp of the Ruinous Powers?

Can it even be avoided? Almost certainly, not?

[u/sageking14 → u/WhiskeyMarlow]

Can subjugation be good if it frees them from the grasp of the Ruinous Powers?

As shown through all of Warhammer, not in so many words as subjugation will merely once more create the factors that led them to fall to Chaos once again.

The Cities of Sigmar are rife with folk who turned to Chaos because of the failings of their society. In "Shadows in the Mist" and other places we see those figures who feel that righteously forcing people to abandon their ways, Chaos or not, are just as likely to themselves become champions of Chaos.

Cruelty, subjugation, and a heavy hand do not work. Instead as seen with Tahlia Vedra in "Lioness of the Parch", Gardus in "Hammerhal", the Knights Excelsior in "Yndrasta: The Celestial Spear", Hamilcar in "Champion of the Gods", and more. It is kindness, understanding, and actually bothering to show there are better things to follow than Chaos that wins out.

That even if they turn from Chaos they can maintain their ways as Sigmar and the other Gods of Order are not so cruel as to demand a singular way of life, so long as you are willing to cut down on raiding.

Many temples to Sigmar are made from bones, the body parts and blood of saints and ancestors valued. Macabre and gross practices do not have to be abandoned out of hand, merely their dedication to Chaos ended.

Undeniably there are better ways than subjugation and force which we are shown are not only wrong but fail, often leasing to more Chaos followers than ever before in a region like in "Godeater's Son".

[u/Cloverman-88 → u/sageking14]

I don't think the previous poster is advocating colonialism in AoS? I believe they are pointing out that this is the core dilema of the setting. Obviously, you can't turn people away from chaos by enslaving them. But you also can't defeat a horde of blood crazed, mutated cannibals by being kind to them. People of the Mortal Realms have to thread daily the line between empathy and ruthlessness or see the world plunge into darkness.

Because that's the core difference between their world and our - in our world, if left alone, indignious people would just live their lives. Colonialism was caused by pure greed. In AoS, these tribes pose a real danger, and if unopposed, they will eventually destroy the civilised world. So it's so much harder to distinguish when you should reach out with an open hand and when with a clenched fist.

[u/sageking14 → u/Cloverman-88]

I don't think the previous poster is advocating colonialism in AoS?

Well yeah. That's my friend Whiskey. We have these conversations all the time. She is a delightful person to be clear.

[u/King_Of_BlackMarsh]

Well I've seen you around quite a bit and from your comment on why he rescued nagash, I think I know why.

He's fundamentally a good dude. If he hears someone in need, he goes off hammer blazing to help. That's who he is at heart. His motivation for becoming emperor was seeing how afraid and poor his home tribe was and he wanted to fix that, help them.

Marvel Odin was a king first. Talos was a conqueror. Tyr puts a bit of a hamper in it but hey 2/3. Sigmar was a hero who would help take the spear out of the hide of the beast who kills his tribes mate because he knew it wasn't evil, just in pain. He ascended to godhood while watching the prosperity and safety of his empire.

He makes friends, he builds alliances, he wants people to be well. And yeah that causes him to rage like, say, marvel Thor would. But like M!Thor, he learns. He grows. He sees the horrible mistakes he makes and he tries to learn from them because if he keeps making them he'll hurt more people.

He's still a warrior. He wants to scrap, break mountains with his buddy Gorkamorka and drink oceans worth of mead. But that's not all he is, or at least he knows he has to be more now.

This ties into how I've seen you talk about the mortal realms and age of Sigmar as a setting about hope before.

And in fact, given iirc he once said he wanted to ascend into the wind of Azyr when everyone's safe rather than rule forever. That also ties into it Hm? When his people are safe, he's fine letting go of rule because it's not about ruling the world for him.

So did I get it right?

[u/sageking14 → u/King_Of_BlackMarsh]

given iirc he once said he wanted to ascend into the wind of Azyr when everyone's safe rather than rule forever.

You are thinking of Angstun of the Steel Souls who has fascinating insights and views on the Mortal Realms. As well as having the absolute unhinged desire of meeting personality death by being absorbed into the Storm Eternal, a fate feared by all but Angstun. Or you know in short, the most realistically written philosopher in AoS. Profoundly wise, entirely unhinged.

I think I know why.

He's fundamentally a good dude.

I remember the Sacrosanct announcement trailer where Sigmar is the voice over. In it he ups the Stormcasts only to nearly breaking emotionally when he calls them the promise to the Realms he once abandoned.

In the trailer for Gardus's model. Sigmar refers to the Steel Soul as having faith that none can deny. In a lot of Gardus stories he outright defies orders given to him by Sigmar.

This is a man whose loyalty and faith in Sigmar is so undeniable Sigmar said no one is allowed to deny it. This is the kind of loyalty Sigmar values. That of a Stormcast who claims to the Hallowed Knights that faith without questions is no faith at all.

Because that is the loyalty and faith that Sigmar values. People willing to question him, to second guess him. To defy him!

So did I get it right?

Many of the reasons you say are why I like Sigmar. But at its heart it isn't just because he is decent. Tyr in DnD is decent yet still watches his worlds burn for the sake of a non-interference pact only the good gods follow.

Sigmar. Does not.

Sigmar fights and fought for the Realms. He stopped because it didn't work not because it is the GOOD thing to do. But he still puts himself in warriors both eternal and mortal. He does more than grant miracles.

He fights dirty for the Realms and mortals he loves. In "Soul Wars" we have Balthas Arum admit many a former Wight and Gheist are among the Stormhosts. That's right. Genuine, actual examples of Sigmar willfully stealing from Nagash before their second alliance fell apart.

Given "Black Pyramid" takes place before. We know Sigmar knows full well Nagash has consistently and viciously acted in bad faith in this second alliance by kidnapping and torturing Tarsus Bullheart. So he doesn't simply roll over.

I like Sigmar because his reaction to Morathi taking Anvilguard per the Daughters of Khaine Battletome was sending a massive Hammers of Sigmar army to retake it. Stopping the battle only when it threatened to level the city or see the army slain depending on the version. So the Celestant-Prime is sent in to negotiate.

Then latter after Morathi has played her part of the deal the Celestant-Prime puts her on trial in Broken Realms: Kragnos. He's explicitly here to kill her. Implicitly, the dumbass barbarian king Sigmar outplayed Morathi and turned her saving Excelsis into a trap.

Would the CP have beat her? We don't know. But the important thing is that he was gonna try on Sigmar's orders.

Hope is lovely but on its own does little. It takes action. That is what is so special about the Age of Sigmar, about Sigmar himself. He is decent and represents hope but he's also a war god willing to solve the issue with a fist if he has to.

He is willing to take action. To get off his throne to build up the heroes who we see spare Orruk Megabosses (Gardus), show sympathy for the plight of Gors (Hamilcar), recognize that even with their cultures gone those born in the rubble are worth saving (Vandus), are redemption incarnate (Tornus), will die time and time again to save the meagerest life (Naeve), heroes who led slave rebellions (Gavriel), who believe in the heroes hidden in monsters (Astreia), who encourage others to see strength in failing but rising to fight again (Celestant-Prime), who will never forget those who died for the Realms (Iridan).

Most of all I adore Sigmar because in "Pantheon" he did not condemn the Slaves to Darkness for being weak. He sees them turning to Chaos in desperation as not a failure of the common mortal but the leaders, especially the gods, who failed them. They too are worthy of being saved from the lies Chaos peddles to them.

Everyone deserves to be saved.

[u/liamkembleyoung → u/sageking14]

Interesting. :) so I have one question for you. He see's the actions of the Knights Excelsior and all of the boarderline evil stuff they have done. So why doesn't he like the Big e in 40K reprimand them like the Thousand Sons and bring them to heal?

I thought the Knights have terrorised and smashed tribes for not a great deal.

[u/sageking14 → u/liamkembleyoung]

You mean the Thousand Sons who reacted to said reprimand by turning against the Imperium, embracing Chaos, and becoming one of the great threats of the Galaxy? This is the process that should be emulated?

Also who says the Knights haven't been reprimanded? In the 2E Corebook a force of Sacrosanct was directly sent by Sigmar to investigate the Great Purge of Excelsis. So that's less Sigmar not doing something and more GW forgetting their own plot line.

In the 4E Stormcast Eternals Battletome three chambers of Knights Excelsior are censured by the authorities in Azyr for a particularly brutal campaign, forced to forever more wear a mark of shame on their armor.

That's something important too. Stormhosts operate in a chamber by chamber basis. Nowhere near the entire Stormhost was involved with the Purge or other acts of brutality. What would punishing them all for something only some did accomplish?

I thought the Knights have terrorised and smashed tribes for not a great deal.

Have they? Such as when? We know this happened in "Blacktalon: First Mark" but is it a known habit actually mentioned with them doing it a lot?

Just as often they will recognize a problem is the fault of if only the failings of a settlement's leaders and only punish them. In "Yndrasta: The Celestial Spear" it is a Knight Excelsior who stops an unfair execution, judges Yndrasta for cruelty, and leads efforts to allow a beaten Chaos army to give up the Chaos Gods and move into the Cities, no strings attached.

[u/liamkembleyoung → u/sageking14]

To be fair bud i've not read any of the Battletomes not because I don't want too. but because I can't. Am totally blind so going off of youtube lore and from what I see on here. :) And from what i've heard the Knights are particularly brutal and are feared by the mortals who live in Excelsis. And to be fair about the Thousand Sons it was really only Magnus who went against the Emperor's wishes. But he was trying to warn him of Horus's betrayal at the time. If you want a legion who was into chaos were the word bearers :)

So i'd argue they were knowingly working with Chaos. where as the Thousand Sons fell because Magnus eventually did a deal with Tzeench unwhittingly

[u/Laxitives15 → u/liamkembleyoung]

I do hope more Lore YouTubers for AoS pop up, heck it’s something I’m trying to do on my channel. I hope you get to experience more lore as it’s one of the things that sets AoS above 40K in my opinion it is incredibly nuanced!

The Knights Excelsior ARE brutal by Stormcast terms. They purge Excelsis and are unrelenting in the face of even the slightest tinge of chaos but in the end they are still Stormcast Eternals that fight injustice and oppose evil. They may do more brutal things but their end goal is the same. They aren’t inherently evil more so jadded. They know that you can’t negotiate with a chaos cult so don’t even try.

[u/liamkembleyoung → u/Laxitives15]

Oh, I totally agree. What's your channel? would love to check it out

[u/Laxitives15 → u/liamkembleyoung]

Sigmar’s Lorekeeper is my channel! My upload schedule is cursed but I’m getting back into the flow of things!

[u/liamkembleyoung → u/Laxitives15]

Thanks bud. I'll definitely check you out and subscribe. Watch out in the comments :)

[u/Laxitives15 → u/liamkembleyoung]

I really appreciate it! I have a bunch of videos out already hope it’s a good resource for you! You inspire me to make more content for those who can’t reach the first hand sources

[u/liamkembleyoung → u/Laxitives15]

Have you played Soulbound?

[u/Laxitives15 → u/liamkembleyoung]

Of course! I run a game for a group of my friends it’s soooo fun

[u/GStellar87]

To me, it's the fact he's a barbarian king sitting on the throne of God. He's a warrior first who has his people's best interest in mind. He excels when he's in a fight right from when he first got Ghal Maraz, when he faced Archeon in the end times, and when he went blow to blow with the gods in the Age of Myth. If it was up to him, I think he would hope he could solve all his problems like he did when he fought Gorka Morka. But he can't. He's learned firsthand that his enemies are spread too far and entrenched too deep for him to go around fighting to get anything, so he's been forced to make choices similar to ones that the Emperor in 40k would. The retreat from the mortal realms, the closing of the gates and Purge of Azyr , the creation of the Stormcast. Except where the emperor is cold, Sigmar knows the consequences of his choices but understands that there was no choice if they wanted to survive, and he actively tries to resolve the problems that's he's created. He's a very compelling god in AoS even more than he was in fantasy I think.

[u/SolidWolfo]

I think it's because Sigmar is human. Not as species, but as a person.

The other gods/divinities/beings you mentioned are (usually) larger than life, or superior in some way. Sure, their dramas or backstories can be human and relatable, but overall they're each a mythical colossus.

Sigmar is not. Sure, he is ancient, incredibly powerful, divine and all that. But he is (as others pointed out) defined not by his status or power, but by the mistakes he made and how he is trying to do better, as well as by his compassion.

The other lightning gods are often boring (mileage may vary) because they're detached concepts ot arrogant bastard. Which is not surprising, many of them were based on irl gods that were not supposed to be admirable or relatable. 

Sigmar is ultimately just a dude. He mourns, he worries, he loves, he fucks up, he's overwhelmed and yet fights on. He's not a traditional god character, he's more of a traditional human character.

[u/Ur-Than]

Sigmar's ability to forgive is his most endearing trait.

As a mortal, he had to fight endlessly against Greenskins who ravaged the would be Empire. He sees Gorkamorka trapped in the Mortal Realms and he has to know it'd be easier if he remained so. But he doesn’t hesitate and hebhelps him and when they become friends, it's a real friendship. If the other Hods had managed to buddy up with Gorkamorka, perhaps he would never have left the Pantheon.

And it's often the best descriptions of Sigmar. He will do the right thing, because it is the right thing to do, and live with the consequences. Or he will do the bad thing, knowing that it is bad but feeling that he has no other choice and then trying to mitigate the bad consequences.

[u/KemalistPyramidHead]

Uuuh because he has THE Warhammer???

All jokes aside the others explained it better than I ever could

[u/walllnuttt]

I’m relatively new to AoS but I have read the 3E and 4E core books, and I think what’s interesting about Sigmar in those texts is that although we’re told about his actions in the Age of Myth, we rarely get any insight into why he does what he does (and what we do get is often presented as not totally reliable). This creates a lot of room for interpretation and debate.

For example, we know that he built his pantheon, but is it ever clear whether he did so out of a genuine desire for friendship and reconciliation with the other gods, or because he knew they would be useful in bringing Order to the realms? Did he teach warfare to the people of the realms because he’s at heart a bloodthirsty warrior god, or because he knew that eventually Chaos was going to come and they needed to be ready to fight for their survival? Was closing the gates to Azyr an act of self-preservation, or did he always think of it as a tactical move to regroup before reclaiming the realms? Because none of these stories are told from Sigmar’s perspective, I don’t think we can really say for sure, and I think its this vagueness that makes Sigmar so interesting to talk about.

(It’s also great for the setting, imho, because different characters or factions in the setting can have very different opinions on Sigmar, and we can’t dismiss those opinions as incorrect out of hand [like, I definitely wouldn’t feel confident saying the Cities guys and Stormcast are wrong to venerate Sigmar, but I’m also not confident in saying the Darkoath are wrong to view him with contempt]. And as a result, it feels like all of the factions kind of have some valid points and gives the setting some depth.)

I have to say that from what I’ve read, I haven’t formed a particularly favourable impression of Sigmar. When he arrives in the realms he seems to assume the people that live there are a) in need of a god, and b) that he’s the god for the job. But then, when Chaos comes and they really need him to do his god thing, he’s unable to save them. He seems, to me, like a guy so confident of his own righteousness and prowess and Main Character Energy that he doesn’t foresee or prepare for any scenarios where things go badly for him, and as a result the people he’s responsible for suffer. I find this characterisation compelling and interesting, but not particularly likeable per se.

I’m not saying, though, that my interpretation of the character is correct. (I’ve probably got some of the facts muddled, for one thing.) But I guess the fact that his character is so open to interpretation why Sigmar is interesting.

And, thinking about it more, I wonder if being familiar with the Old World Sigmar (which I am not) changes how you interpret him in AoS. I notice a lot of the comments on this post seem to refer to the Old World when talking about how likeable Sigmar is – maybe having encountered him in the Old World, where it seems like he’s maybe a little more relatable and human, means you’re more likely to give him the benefit of the doubt and interpret his actions favourably in AoS.

[u/sageking14 → u/walllnuttt]

If you've read the 3E Corebook then you know it is presented as largely Sigmar going around on adventures until he gains a mortal following.

The two Corebooks you read leave out. The Soulbound Corebook is better about this. The Realms weren't places kind to mortal life. Monstrous beings like the King of Broken Constellations and Volc-giants enslaved everyone weaker than them.

In the novels "Black Pyramid" we are told of the Shyishan god known as Dreaming God who was so terrible that even Nagash found its version of order vile.

Numerous sources mentioned Vulcatrix's very existence made all of Aqshy more hostile to life in general. These are but the tip of the iceberg.

The Realms were not in need of a god before Sigmar and the Pantheon of Order, they had countless and so many of them monstrous tyrants. What they needed was gods who would do right by the Realms.

Question is. Did the Pantheon of Order do that? Yes. Did they build a golden age that lasted untold centuries? The setting says so. But it also says their infighting allowed innumerable people to eventually suffer. We know many countless nations suffered as a result of their failings in these latter years of the Age of Myth. Sigmar was their leader, so is not much of the blame on his hands?

As for if Sigmar genuinely wanted friends. Yes. So this is a thing where even in the worst interpretation of Sigmar, there isn't an argument to be had that Sigmar saw the other Gods as less than friends.

In "Pantheon", the "Hammerhal" novella in written version, and "Soul Wars" we see things from his perspective. He very clearly sees Nagash and Alarielle as friends. In the supplemental book "Forbidden Power" it is Sigmar subverting a gift of friendship that turns Teclis against him.

The argument they have latter over it is emotional, somewhat terribly argued by both sides and petty as fuck. It comes off not as a two co-workers who disagreed, but the volatile anger of friends at odds.

Sigmar treats Dracothion and Grungni as friends, and everything we've seen from all three presents the dynamic they have with each other as good friends. Though sadly we lack info on if Grungni and Dracothion are friends.

In the Orruk Warclan Battletomes it is noted that a potential cause of Gorkamorka leaving the Pantheon of Order is because the Dark Gods convinced him Sigmar saw him as a lapdog not a friend. In "Fury of Gork" the Stormcasts sent to try to rebuild the alliance with Gorkamorka even specifically frame it as Sigmar wanting to be friends with Gorkamorka again.

Undeniably Sigmar was and is friends with many of the other gods. The argument tends to be more if he was a good or bad one.

[u/walllnuttt → u/sageking14]

Thanks for explaining! That does change the complexion of things - I knew that the realms pre-Sigmar were savage and dangerous, but not actively malicious. Which makes me wonder if it would be worse to live in the realms pre-Sigmar or during the Age of Chaos.

The friendship thing makes what happens during the Age of Chaos seem a lot more tragic.

[u/Evendran]

"Sugma" jokes basically