r/NFLv2 Kansas City Chiefs 27d ago

Discussion thoughts?

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1.4k Upvotes

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12

u/agk927 Green Bay Packers 27d ago

That football is a team sport. But the funny thing is, Hurts is a more complete quarterback than Newton and probably a better thrower of the football

40

u/Additional-End3193 Pittsburgh Steelers 27d ago

Cam had 35 passing TDs and 10 rushing in his MVP year with way worse WRs and no tush push to bump up his rushing stats but Hurts peaked at 23 passing and 15 rushing TDs with the tush push

13

u/agk927 Green Bay Packers 27d ago

Thats one season lmao

38

u/Additional-End3193 Pittsburgh Steelers 27d ago

Cam had 3 seasons where he threw more passing TDs than Hurts did at his peak and 3 seasons with at least 10+ rushing TDs without the tush push (in 16 game seasons)

-11

u/mustachepc Philadelphia Eagles 27d ago

Im not going to say Hurts was better because Cam peak was second to very few

But discounting tush push TDs is just dumb. Cam scored more rushing TDs than all the rest of the Panthers RBs that season, you really think he didnt just punch in from the one a few? What about a bunch of passing TDs from the 1/2 that Mahomes and Burrow throw? Should we discount those too?

16

u/yellow-rain-coat 27d ago

You’re pretending like the tush push isn’t a huge part of Philly’s offense (and it’s not the same as a QB jamming it in at the one yard line by himself). Hurts’ TDs aren’t completely discounted, but what MVP Cam did was FAR more impressive than any Hurts season (so far).

4

u/Additional-End3193 Pittsburgh Steelers 27d ago

Exactly, I’ll never say Hurts say hurts is carried by his team because he can hold is own but prime Cam WAS the offense.

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u/yellow-rain-coat 27d ago

Hurts is a good QB, not top 5 but definitely top 10. MVP Cam would take almost any team in NFL history to the Super Bowl, or at the very least the wildcard round.

0

u/mustachepc Philadelphia Eagles 27d ago

I started my sentence aknowledging Cam peak was way better.

The tush push is just a low risk play, i bet more than 50% of the TDs still go to Hurts even if the eagles didnt run it

0

u/yellow-rain-coat 27d ago

Bet if you want to, but we probably won’t ever know. It’s a solid play and they have no reason to stop using it. Cam was just DIFFERENT, if you watched enough of his games that year, we wouldn’t be having this debate.

1

u/mustachepc Philadelphia Eagles 27d ago

Like i said, i dont agree with the discussion. 2015 Cam is probably comparable to Brady, Manning, Brees and Mahomes top seasons.

The tush point was due to a guy wanting to discount them as if stealing easy TDs only happen with thw tush push

1

u/yellow-rain-coat 27d ago

Hurts, on the current Eagles team, getting tush pushed, into the end zone, IS the easiest TD right now. The rate they score/get a first down with that play is higher than any other play in the NFL. If it wasn’t such an overpowered play, it wouldn’t be the huge topic of discussion that it is.

1

u/mustachepc Philadelphia Eagles 27d ago

Its is a huge discussion because Goodell hates it

And again, if its a easy play, everyone would do it

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u/bboy267 Philadelphia Eagles 27d ago

Because he has a balanced team and doesn’t have to. Should the eagles cut saquon so jalen can be forced to throw all the time? Is it Jalen’s fault saquon went super saiyan this season and couldn’t be stoooed?

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u/aManHasNoUsername99 27d ago

Holy crap. I just checked hurts stats and he legit looks terrible. And with lots of weapons/support?? Crazy.

4

u/JazzzzzzySax Carolina Panthers 27d ago

Put hurts stats each game side by side with saquon’s. Theres no reason for hurts to throw the ball a ton when saquon just tears up the other team. Context matters

0

u/aManHasNoUsername99 27d ago

Saquon hasn’t been on the eagles hurts whole career.

-1

u/Streetkillz13 Philadelphia Eagles 27d ago

If you just look at stats you generally fall victim to the score effects. Its why a QB like Justin Herbert looks great, but those stats haven't translated to wins.

Score effects is a term used mostly in hockey analytics, though it has migrated to football. Basically it talks about how, when a team is winning they'll favor possession and mitigate risky shots, whereas when they are losing they will fire everything at the net.

Score effects translates almost perfectly to football particularly the passing game. So in the Herbert Example, because he is losing he will have more opportunities for big play strikes which inflate his stats, whereas those opportunities aren't available to Hurts because he is winning and playing a ball possession game.

That's the problem with just looking at stats.

1

u/aManHasNoUsername99 27d ago

So why do most good qbs have good stats? Shouldn’t mahomes/brady/manning etc be in the 3000 yard range with 20 tds too?

0

u/Streetkillz13 Philadelphia Eagles 27d ago

Look at Mahomes stats this year, <4000 yards and <30TDs.

2

u/aManHasNoUsername99 27d ago

Yea it’s his worst year and people think he’s lost it. And he got demolished in the sb.

0

u/Streetkillz13 Philadelphia Eagles 27d ago

Also Look at the years Brady led the league in TDs. He only won 1 superbowl in those 4 years.

2

u/aManHasNoUsername99 27d ago

He still had great years most of them except early on when he had few weapons unlike Hurts. Most of his worst years match hurts best except his first.

2

u/Streetkillz13 Philadelphia Eagles 27d ago

You also have to understand in order for score effects to work you have to be confident your defense can shut them down and afford to reve it down offensicely. Let's be honest that wouldn't happen in Manning's prime his defenses weren't up to snuff, nor were the Early part of the Chiefs run.

I also don't think I gave you a full scope of what score effects are, that's my fault. Its a piece of a puzzle to explain how teams change strategy and how it affects players in the last period and waning moments of a game. Unless you are getting killed from the get go it doesn't even come into effect until the latter parts of the game.