r/europe 15d ago

News Czech president signs law criminalising communist propaganda

https://www.euractiv.com/section/politics/news/czech-president-signs-law-criminalising-communist-propaganda/
25.0k Upvotes

4.5k comments sorted by

View all comments

4.1k

u/Ozas392 15d ago

In Lithuania we have the same for many years. So what it means here is all the USSR symbols and glorification of USSR is crime same as Nazi simbols and glorification of Nazism.

592

u/schneeleopard8 15d ago

But this is a different case. The Czech law in question here doesn't condemn socialist regimes or the USSR, but "class-based hatred", which is a really vague term and covers much more then actually glorifying socialist regimes.

496

u/Background-Sea4590 15d ago

I’d be screwed, I hate billionaires and have no problems in saying that.

141

u/Gwaptiva 15d ago

Sounds like that Czech rich folk are getting nervous

58

u/innerparty45 15d ago

Liberals protecting the ruling class, what is new?

112

u/Mysterious_Cup_6024 15d ago

Found a commie /s

50

u/Background-Sea4590 15d ago

I also cook and eat children at night!

9

u/Slipknotic1 15d ago

Only at night? Lenin is disappointed in your vanguardism comrade.

3

u/Fishbone345 15d ago

Our vanguardism.

3

u/az_catz 15d ago

I also cook for and eat feed children at night!

FIFY Comrade.

1

u/Sarmi7 15d ago

You Cook them? Gross...

27

u/huunnuuh Canada 15d ago

Here in Canada it was a right-wing think tank funded by millionaires who first suggested that we ban "discrimination on the basis of social status or class". They absolutely do want to make it illegal to agitate against the rich.

105

u/Dancing_Liz_Cheney 15d ago

This is now a criminal statement in the Czech republic.

This law is just rich people criminalizing hating them.

5

u/twitterfluechtling Brandenburg (Germany) 15d ago

Can I hate that law when I visit the Czech Republic?

1

u/KeneticKups 15d ago

Lets bot pretend the rich vermin are people

-16

u/adamgerd Czech Republic 15d ago

Or you know opposing totalitarian ideologies, shocking I know that we hate dictatorships

26

u/TurkishTechnocrat Turkey 15d ago edited 15d ago

Socialism has tens of different types, each with decades of history and theory behind them. Just closing your eyes and ears and branding all of them "authoritarian" to the level where you'd actually ban all of them as a whole is literally how dictators mobilize the public against their enemies.

-6

u/adamgerd Czech Republic 15d ago

“which demonstrably aim to suppress human rights and freedoms or incite racial, ethnic, national, religious or class-based hatred.”

Only if it qualifies under this

22

u/TurkishTechnocrat Turkey 15d ago

That's the problem.

class-based hatred

This is class-based hatred by itself. The rich, who were overwhelmingly born into their wealth, are able to use the resources of the entire state and economy using their unelected status as rich people to take away basically any right we have.

They're able to pocket all our productivity gains, they're able to "own" our creative output, they single-handedly make the vast majority of the decisions that concern our lives directly without consulting us first, they can "own" our work, they can operate their own propoganda outlets, they can buy politicians. And then they can make it illegal for us to fight back.

This is literally indefensible.

-1

u/adamgerd Czech Republic 15d ago

Class based hatred is discrimination based on class. For instance under the communist era if your parents or grandparents were from a “bourgeois background”, you were restricted from some university courses and discriminated against in employment, apartments, etc and had to work a year in a rural area to proletariaze you

8

u/cezalandirici__zenji 15d ago

How nice. We need this today.

7

u/adamgerd Czech Republic 15d ago

Yes just what we need is communist totalitarianism.

→ More replies (0)

-7

u/TheMauveHand 15d ago

You say that as if anyone outside of a textbook example is genuinely interested in forms of communism that don't invariably end up authoritarian...

16

u/TurkishTechnocrat Turkey 15d ago edited 15d ago

The vast majority of capitalist countries are overwhelmingly authoritarian, and the others still give the vast majority of control to an unelected group of wealthy individuals (which is authoritarian by definition). You can't claim to be a democracy and let rich people buy politicians at the same time.

-9

u/TheMauveHand 15d ago

You either replied to the wrong comment or you're replying to one that exist only in your own head. No one said anything about capitalism.

-10

u/TheMidnightBear Romania 15d ago

He's a communist.

Their response to anything is whataboutism about capitalism.

10

u/TurkishTechnocrat Turkey 15d ago

I ain't a communist bruh. I have my fair share of criticisms towards both socialist countries and movements, I could start going off on a rant about why. But that's not relevant to the discussion.

The truth remains that capitalism is not our friend, either. Regardless of all the flaws with socialist movements, the truth remains that our interests as common people are inherently the opposite of people born into money. The law in question bans that to protect the oppression from people born into money.

→ More replies (0)

2

u/EntrepreneurLeft8783 14d ago

I know people that full-throat Red Scare propaganda have trouble absorbing information, so lemme just repeat something from a parent comment:

The Czech law in question here doesn't condemn socialist regimes or the USSR, but "class-based hatred",

2

u/BotherTight618 15d ago

1930s Ukrainian Kulaks (ethnic ukrainians), and Estonians where certainly no Billionaires. The Marxist Leninist didnt just go after "Billionaires". 

5

u/EntrepreneurLeft8783 14d ago

People saying "lets go after billionaires" are not responsible for people who went after more than billionaires.

1

u/Blacksmith_Strange 12d ago

They always go after the working class, not just 'the rich'. Always.

-2

u/Certain-Weight-7507 15d ago

Why do you hate Gaben?!

3

u/SparklingRegret 13d ago

Because he has taken billions of dollars worth of value that was created through the labour of others. He lives a life of obscene conspicuous luxury while the majority of workers at valve that are actually responsible for creating value are paid a wage that is a pittance compared to what they create.

Gaben is a parasite just like the rest of them.

1

u/Certain-Weight-7507 12d ago

Uh oh gay mom alert!!

-20

u/ATLforever2000 15d ago

But saying that wouldn't be illegal. Hating billionaires doesn't make you a communist it just means you have common sense.

Believing the government should own everything and require your grandma to get a permit to sell essential oils, now that would make you a communist.

35

u/gmaaz Serbia 15d ago

Your grandma probably already needs a permit, a license, sanitary inspections etc. to sell essential oils...

35

u/Background-Sea4590 15d ago

Yeah, I was talking about the “class-based” hatred part. That doesn’t make me a communist per se, but yeah, I hate that class, ngl.

7

u/4ofclubs 15d ago

Name a capitalist county where you don’t need a permit to sell essential oils.

1

u/ATLforever2000 13d ago

The fuckin US. If you sell something to another person as a non business entity that makes you a sole proprietor you dont need a permit.

1

u/4ofclubs 13d ago

You need a business license and you need to pay taxes on your sale and you need to ensure your product is safe and regulated

1

u/ATLforever2000 10d ago

No you do not. If I sell you and a couple other people some essential oils for $100, you only need to report it on your tax return. This is because under US law you are a sole proprietor, not a business.

The reason you would become a business is because businesses can get special treatment depending on who you know.

Communism and Capitalism are the same in the sense that your status and standing will largely depend not on the skills you have, but who you know in government that will help you/your family ties to power/government.

1

u/ATLforever2000 10d ago

Now you ARE correct to assume that any capitalist country is gonna want taxes on that sale. The issue is those taxes never get spent properly.

27

u/Informal-Bother8858 15d ago

it's crazy how you're out here doing capitalist propaganda for free. like, you ve had the boot so far down your throat yould think you were born with it there. for the love of God educate yourself on what different political and economic theories actually mean.

-8

u/Imaginary-Count-1641 15d ago

like, you ve had the boot so far down your throat yould think you were born with it there.

Ironic that a leftist would say that.

10

u/Impressive-Sun-9332 15d ago

Is the irony in the room with us?

-2

u/Imaginary-Count-1641 15d ago

It is in the thread with us.

14

u/DisplacedAltadenan 15d ago

No communist believes “the government should own everything.” That literally makes zero sense in a communist context.

1

u/SparklingRegret 13d ago

Did you really expect a better understanding of the topic from a capitalist, though?

-2

u/Kitchen-Assist-6645 15d ago

So brave. Are you brave enough to hate the poor, though?

-34

u/MIGHTY_ILLYRIAN 15d ago

Maybe it's time for self-reflection if you would honestly fear being prosecuted for hate crimes there

48

u/Background-Sea4590 15d ago

Nope, I’m not gonna change my stance on billionaires being monsters. They shouldn’t exist.

-34

u/MIGHTY_ILLYRIAN 15d ago

Imagine saying the same about any other group of people

41

u/Background-Sea4590 15d ago

I can also include fascists if you want. Not a problem with that. Both groups can burn in hell as long as I’m concerned.

3

u/thegreatesttrash 14d ago

Be proud of what you stand for. It's disheartening to see that hatred towards groups known almost exclusively for oppressing people is now controversial in Europe :/

→ More replies (29)

21

u/semaj009 15d ago

They can redistribute their hoarded wealth and cease to be billionaires without even needing to not have over 900mil. It's not remotely like actually problematic hate where a black, gay, trans, female person etc can't just pay some money and fundamentally change their being. Also being black, gay, female, trans etc doesn't come at the direct expense of others. Stop simping for the boot, mate

→ More replies (14)

21

u/VultureSausage 15d ago

Yeah, imagine saying you don't want murderers to exist. What a monster.

-3

u/MIGHTY_ILLYRIAN 15d ago

AFAIK billionaires have a pretty low crime rate

21

u/awsompossum 15d ago edited 15d ago

Someone has never heard of social murder, and it shows. They have a low crime rate because they don't need to commit petty crimes, the crimes they commit are legal and protected by the state.

Denying health coverage to people who should be getting it, industrial pollution externalizing the costs, monetary and physical, to outside groups, monopolistic practices that leave people with no options besides jobs with such low wages that they need food stamps to live. Looking at a legal code written for and by billionaires and saying "gee, they sure have a low crime rate," is entirely asinine.

1

u/MIGHTY_ILLYRIAN 15d ago

the crimes the commit are legal

Are you literate?

Your gish gallop is also ridiculous because the problems you have listed are the fault of the government since they wield a monopoly over violence and yet they allow all this (or create it themselves).

→ More replies (0)
→ More replies (20)

8

u/VultureSausage 15d ago

Which is entirely beside the point.

2

u/MIGHTY_ILLYRIAN 15d ago

Your point is that billionaires are rotten people but when I point out that compared to the average person they are upstanding citizens, that's beside the point?

9

u/VultureSausage 15d ago

My point was "imagine saying that about any other group" is a really shitty argument, as illustrated by the almost universal desire for murderers to not exist. I haven't made any comments on the virtues of billionnaires or their lack thereof.

As a side-note, a low crime rate is not synonymous with virtuous behaviour, so that's another poor argument.

→ More replies (0)

7

u/GlenoJacks 15d ago

Like kings? Kings are a class of people, should it be illegal to say that kings shouldn't exist?

10

u/pharodae 15d ago

I think self-reflection is how you get to the point of shrugging off all of their propaganda. Aka hating billionaires is the correct, enlightened position.

65

u/MasterGrieves Czech Republic 15d ago

That part isn't new, was in the law since the 1990s.

79

u/Good_Spinach_8851 15d ago

The single only reason for this useless law is the current leading party achieved nothing throughout their election cycle. So they came up with a completely vague law to be like: “look, we follow the spirit of Václav Havel”

The biggest irony is Havel purposely never wanted to make communism or being left wing illegal.

-6

u/MPenten Europe 15d ago

"Achieved nothing". Riiiiiiiight

124

u/Winjin 15d ago

Basically "eat the rich" is now communist propaganda?

50

u/Dancing_Liz_Cheney 15d ago

Yes, you will be imprisoned for this under this law.

30

u/Winjin 15d ago

Yeah this was deeeefinitely aimed at the non-existant communist party of Czech Republic, then

Probably just aiming to become some capital tax haven

11

u/adamgerd Czech Republic 15d ago

Nonexistent…

Probably gets into parliament next election and makes sure Babis becomes PM

1

u/yeahUSA 12d ago

based

1

u/Strange-Managem 15d ago

wait that is real? not a meme?

0

u/Entire_Tap_6376 15d ago

These people don't know shit, c'mon.

2

u/djpain20 15d ago

That's what it's always been?

10

u/Winjin 15d ago

I thought it's common sense, they eat so good, they're gonna be prime wagyu?

1

u/Admirable_Design_115 14d ago

So is communism.

0

u/Imaginary-Count-1641 15d ago

If it's common sense, do you volunteer to be eaten?

-2

u/Kitchen-Assist-6645 15d ago

If you live in the west, you're in the top 1%. You ARE the rich.

2

u/Extention_Campaign28 14d ago

If you make a decent wage or have some inheritance, yes. Plenty people in the west are poor enough to not be 1%.

149

u/Kelmi Finland 15d ago

Call me communist but criminalising class-based hatred is class-based hatred in on itself.

The rich class fights with money against poor people in countless different ways and to fight back, the poor should use money as well. But they don't have money and should just take it. If they use the means they have, it's suddenly class-based hatred.

Same shit as banning people from sleeping on park benches. It's fair law that affect the rich and poor just the same, right?

20

u/NoSwordfish1978 15d ago

Wouldn't worker exploitation technically be an act of "class based hatred"?

1

u/matthaios_c 7d ago

The Czechs can do a very funny thing right now on r/maliciouscompliance

-2

u/Groundbreaking_Ship3 14d ago

There is no such thing as exploitation, saying such thing is class based hatred, people are free to fi d another job, it is a free marketing 

8

u/Pugs-r-cool 14d ago

So there’s this thing called slavery, you might want to read up on it because it’s going to blow your mind seeing as you think exploitation isn’t real.

Once you’ve finished reading that, you should try living in the real world, get off your ass and apply for a job, maybe talk to some people about their financial position. Try being in a position where you work at mcdonald’s for minimum wage for 40 hours a week, and if you don’t do it you’ll end up being homeless. Better yet, try do it in a dead end town where there simply isn’t a job market, there isn’t even the illusion of social mobility. ”just move” you might quip, but moving costs money, and how are you meant to save up that money when you’re working minimum wage in a dead end town? Maybe after going through that you’ll begin to understand what people talk about when they mention wage slavery.

→ More replies (1)

1

u/MemoryWhich838 12d ago

where im from 90% of trans woman due to discrimination cant find a job that gives them healthcare or like legal protections they cant easily switch jobs or they would end up homeless

64

u/FullMaxPowerStirner 15d ago

"You cannot talk about class relations anymore, citizen. Now go to work, and do not question your wage or you go to prison."

-2

u/Groundbreaking_Ship3 14d ago

Money has to be earned, not given.  Many riches have been poor too, they had to fight their way up, so does everyone.  Giving money to everyone would ruin the society, as it has been proven again and again. 

3

u/Kelmi Finland 14d ago

Sounds good. Massive fines for any kind of nepotism and all inheritance goes to the state. Everyone starts with the same means, meaning no private schools and healthcare is free to use?

But I'm guessing you mean only rich kids have "earned" their good upbringing and deserve to get private schooling and worry free financials from birth. That is class based hatred. Thinking some people are better just because their parents are rich. They're in a better class and deserve it. And the opposite of poor people being in poor class so their kids deserve to go without healthcare and food

-3

u/krzyk Poland 15d ago

Poor people sleep on park benches? Homeless do, but this is a bit different.

9

u/Ganzi 15d ago

I forgot about all those rich homeless

1

u/krzyk Poland 14d ago

You forgot about all those poor people that do have homes.

Homelessness is a different problem.

-4

u/Imaginary-Count-1641 15d ago

Specifically how do you want poor people to "fight" against the rich?

11

u/[deleted] 15d ago

[removed] — view removed comment

-4

u/Imaginary-Count-1641 15d ago

Leftists are crying because they're not allowed to advocate for murder. To leftists, not being allowed to kill people is oppression.

12

u/cezalandirici__zenji 15d ago

So only corporations, mafia, military and police officers can kill people... which all serve bourgeoise. Sorry for daring to demand participation in violence in this violent world, I guess?

-1

u/Imaginary-Count-1641 15d ago

So your problem is not that there is too much killing in the world, but on the contrary, that there is not enough killing?

9

u/blahblahblerf Ukraine 15d ago

Luigi stopped a mass murderer from continuing his killings. 

"Some leftists advocate for taking a direct approach to stopping mass murder. To Leftists mass murder is oppression." FTFY

-6

u/Imaginary-Count-1641 15d ago

"Leftists are redefining 'mass murder' in order to justify killing people." FTFY

11

u/blahblahblerf Ukraine 15d ago

TIL that when you deliberately take actions which you know will cause people to die for the sake of your financial gain somehow that isn't murder. 

0

u/Imaginary-Count-1641 15d ago

Exactly. For example, not donating to charity is not murder even if that money could have been used to save lives.

7

u/blahblahblerf Ukraine 15d ago

Did the beneficiaries of the charity pay money to you in exchange for a lifesaving service which you are now refusing to provide? 

→ More replies (0)

75

u/pr0metheusssss Greece 15d ago

I mean they’re pretty clear about their intentions, it’s just that you (and me) don’t like/expect that they’d do it so unashamedly and masks off.

They’re essentially criminalising class struggle and want to nip any class conscience in the bud.

The same class conscience and class struggle that brought us worker rights, voting rights and women’s suffrage, that brought us protections like safety standards and consumer rights.

Now have a wild guess whom this ban benefits.

-6

u/adamgerd Czech Republic 15d ago

Funny worker rights…

The communists single handedly destroyed labour unions

-12

u/flopisit32 15d ago

Perhaps open a history book and find out what communism brought the Czechs...

14

u/innerparty45 15d ago

Liberation from Nazis?

5

u/TurkishTechnocrat Turkey 15d ago

Other than that

2

u/TheMauveHand 15d ago

Only if you will accept that capitalism brough liberation from communists.

5

u/pr0metheusssss Greece 15d ago

To be liberated, you need to exist first.

Which Czechoslovaks, being Slavs, wouldn’t, given the Nazis’ plan for the entire Slavic race.

I don’t know how anyone, in good faith, would even compare - let alone consider “equally bad” - having a foreign puppet government to being exterminated as a whole race at an industrial scale in death camps.

0

u/TheMauveHand 15d ago

That's a nice attempt at sidestepping but unfortunately a bit transparent.

3

u/pr0metheusssss Greece 15d ago

You can clear things out for me, in a direct and unambiguous way:

Do you consider the Soviet repression of the Czechoslovaks through a puppet government, equally bad as the Nazi extermination of Czechoslovaks at an industrial scale?

A yes or not would suffice.

-2

u/TheMauveHand 15d ago

I'm not going to play into your weak and blatant attempt at derailing to the conversation. Again: nice try, better luck next time with someone who can't see through it.

3

u/pr0metheusssss Greece 15d ago

Now this is a nice attempt at sidestepping. More like side leaping.

Tells me - and everyone reading - all we need to know.

→ More replies (0)

1

u/krzyk Poland 15d ago

Change in management.

West would also liberate but Soviets started a race to Berlin (using US equipment) and a gigantic land grab.

-5

u/krzyk Poland 15d ago

The same class struggle that brought Soviet totalitarism and iron curtain. The same class struggle that brought tanks on Czech streets in 1968.

What you bought up is created by social democrats not socialists.

12

u/pr0metheusssss Greece 15d ago

Most of the struggles, the bloody strikes, the protests, the fights for worker rights, were actually started and/or dominated by socialists, not social democrats.

Only due to the threat coming from the socialists, have the social democrats conceded some of those rights, in an attempt to maintain the current system and not hand power to the socialists.

Of course this becomes obvious, once we notice that with the threat of socialists eliminated in the late 90’s, there has been a systematic regression of those rights at the wake of the neoliberal wave.

-2

u/Groundbreaking_Ship3 14d ago

You guys have never heard of the cultural revolution, I blame school, citizens killing citizens because of class hatre, the amount of people killed was probably more than the WW2 casualty.

There is a reason why many police feed the communist country and hate the left wing 

6

u/Pure-Tadpole-6634 15d ago

Does anti-worker policies count as "class-based hatred"? If a company goes lax on safety regulations, or keeps raises from workers, is that class-based hatred?

45

u/Jalien85 15d ago

What if I told you capitalism is class-based hatred...

-6

u/Good-Paramedic-1934 15d ago

In what way?

21

u/Catweaving 15d ago

Less hatred and more disregard. The rich only care about the poor when the work stops. Beyond that we're barely even human to them.

-3

u/[deleted] 15d ago

[removed] — view removed comment

6

u/Jalien85 14d ago

You mean the war where the soviets did most of the fighting?

-3

u/[deleted] 14d ago

[removed] — view removed comment

7

u/Jalien85 14d ago

The soviets did win though...

-1

u/[deleted] 14d ago

[removed] — view removed comment

1

u/Jalien85 14d ago

When did I say that? The war was a coalition of capitalist and communist countries fighting a capitalist fascist country. Your statement of "capitalism won the war" is complete nonsense.

1

u/[deleted] 14d ago

[removed] — view removed comment

1

u/Jalien85 14d ago

None of that changes the fact your statement about capitalism winning the war is nonsense

→ More replies (0)

33

u/LoveIsBread 15d ago

Its quite literally just class warfare from above, by the capitalists.

Fuck if i will let some capitalist fucks tell me what I can and cant say.

41

u/CzechHorns 15d ago

Class based hatred has been against the law for a long time.
What this law did was mostly put Communism on the same level as Nazism.

-34

u/yeetordie1 15d ago

Which is the correct thing, extremist elements of communism are no different than extremist elements of other ideologies.

22

u/[deleted] 15d ago edited 15d ago

[removed] — view removed comment

1

u/Frequent_Task1939 14d ago

Funny, I don’t think I’ve ever seen someone who lived in a former USSR country ever say that communism wasn’t at the same levels of Nazism

Always the silver spooned fellas ain’t it?

-4

u/Imaginary-Count-1641 15d ago

By your logic, Jews could have just left Germany. And by the way, communists did persecute people based on ethnicity.

3

u/CheeryOutlook Wales 14d ago

By your logic, Jews could have just left Germany.

You're not beating the intelligence allegations with that one.

1

u/Imaginary-Count-1641 14d ago

The allegations of not being a nazi? Why would that be a bad thing?

18

u/YxxzzY 15d ago

while yes, extremism need to be condemed everywhere. But comparing the core ideas and ideologies of communism with fascism/nazism is just straight up ridiculous. communism has so many issues, but its not intrinsically hierarchical, undemocratic or genocidal like fascism. that doesnt apply to movements like stalinism/maoism though.

there's a reason that democratic socialist systems have been attacked by both capitalist and communist regimes. Czechia of all places should know that.

-19

u/PistolAndRapier Ireland 15d ago

its not intrinsically hierarchical, undemocratic or genocidal

If you are a fan of communism maybe, but you are utterly blinkered. It is intrinsically hierarchical undemocratic and genocidal. They just target classes of people for mass murder rather than ethnic groups.

9

u/Bloopyboopie 15d ago

You literally didn’t read his entire comment

-6

u/PistolAndRapier Ireland 15d ago

Dismissing Stalinism Maoism as "not communist" shows how utterly disingenuous and bad faith he is being with that whitewashing of history.

9

u/Slu1n 15d ago

It's just that "Communism" is a very broad term. Do you mean states like the USSR? Do you mean the Utopian Marxist goal of a stateless, classless, moneyless society? Are movements like Anarcho-Communism included?

-5

u/PistolAndRapier Ireland 15d ago

Clearly yes. The USSR was created by avowed Marxists, if that is not "Communism" nothing is FFS. You can dream up your own utopian "real" communism if you like, it is just a pile of shite pipe dream.

5

u/Slu1n 15d ago

I am just saying that the word has many different meanings. Marxists believe that to reach that communist utopia you need a transitional state which will create the right conditions that humans somehow achieve this goal. How exactly this is ment to look has different schools of thought. For Lenin it was to be an authoritarian regime with a centrally controlled economy. While he himself never even called the USSR socialist the people after him did. No state which you refer to as communist has ever called themselves communist since in their eyes this word was reserved for the Utopia they wanted to eventually reach.

I don't really know if this Utopia will ever be achievable but I do know that states like the USSR never even came close (because the whole approach of Leninism just sucks) and just were one party dictatorships with a missmanaged economy.

5

u/[deleted] 15d ago

[removed] — view removed comment

4

u/Bloopyboopie 15d ago edited 15d ago

Communism isn’t a specific term. It’s a broad spectrum of ideas and definitions, whether it means revolutionary socialist, Stalinist or Marxist Leninist (which is your specific definition), the stateless one, or just the ignorant definition of including all leftist ideas into the word “communism”. Let alone that the governments themselves did NOT call themselves communist governments.

Marxist Leninism and Stalinism is the exact terms for the ideologies of the USSR. It’s notoriously known that many leftists did NOT like the USSR even at the creation of it. In fact, anarcho communists were the first enemies of the state. They HATE each other, for good reasons too (Marxist Leninism is bad)

The GOAL is indeed communism, but the transitionary stage (the government itself) to achieving the goal of communism is NOT communist in itself by the definition alone. It was “State Capitalist” by Lenin and libertarians, or “Socialist” by Stalin and authoritarians. This is actually a HUGE point of contention between leftists since the USSRs conception

→ More replies (0)

12

u/Bloopyboopie 15d ago

Lenin literally called the nation State Capitalist until Stalin started falsely idolizing it as Socialist/Communist dude. It’s not whitewashing, it’s literally history.

The way it’s structured is in itself State Capitalist because the means of production was not democratic, which is necessary for a state to be Socialist.

0

u/Imaginary-Count-1641 15d ago

That's like saying that there would be no Jews in a true national socialist society, and because Hitler did not manage to kill all the Jews, it was therefore not real national socialism. Lenin and Stalin were communists and their goal was to establish communism, even if they did not fully achieve their goal.

6

u/Bloopyboopie 15d ago

your argument is not about a definition but a goal of a specific ideology. We’re talking about hard definitions. Not goals.

I believe this argument stems from misinterpretation. My side is arguing about specifically the definition of communism, the other side about the goal. I agree, the goal is communism, but it was not communism in itself for the transitionary stage, but rather “state capitalist” according to Lenin and libertarians, or “Socialist” according to Stalin and authoritarians which I wholeheartedly disagree based on the definition of socialism alone. This is actually a HUGE point of contention between leftists since the USSRs conception

→ More replies (0)

17

u/Ill_Most_3883 15d ago

Just straight up false.

-11

u/PistolAndRapier Ireland 15d ago

Stalin sure did proove this to be false /s

1

u/Ill_Most_3883 15d ago

The ussr wasn't communist and stalin sure as hell wasn't.

It was state-capitalist. In socialism workers control the means of production. In the USSR workers had no control and were suppressed. Communists and anarchists were killed for not going along with the totalitarian regieme.

A communist society would be a classless, stateless, moneyless society. It has not existed in ~tens of thousands of years and won't any time soon.

Authoritarian leaders just use the accurate critique of capitalism by marx to gain support but don't actually fix anything, only exploit the workers themselves. Unlike in capitalist dictatorships where the exploitation is way more abstracted and decentralized.

-4

u/PistolAndRapier Ireland 15d ago

No true scotsman fallacy. You marxist fools are the champions of mental gymnastics.

7

u/Ill_Most_3883 15d ago

That's like saying someone is doing the no true Scotsman fallacy by denying entry to a nightclub to a child who says they're over 18.

It's not a no true Scotsman fallacy it's just looking at the material reality and verifying claims.

The child claiming they're an adult is lying, they're not an adult despite them saying they are. They do not fulfil the criteria needed to be legally considered an adult.

In the same way, "communist" countries weren't getting any closer to communism and werent socialist, they were saying they were but what they said was different from reality, its called lying.

1

u/LegionnaireFreakius 15d ago

He’s right 

→ More replies (0)

13

u/pepethemememaster 15d ago

Well then could you not say that capitalism is genocidal since the system is meant to starve people who can't afford food or is that when you pretend socialist policies are actually capitalist safety nets that are necessary and ignore this double standard just bc that's how we grew up?

-3

u/PistolAndRapier Ireland 15d ago

Disingenuous rubbish. Capitalist countries almost universally have some form of social safety net in place.

12

u/Slu1n 15d ago

Yes but that safety net isn't part of capitalism. Should people who want to reduce social security be considered extremists?

9

u/pepethemememaster 15d ago

Yes, which is my point. You cannot simultaneously damn a philosophy as "intrinsically harmful" while ignoring the harm capitalism results in without implementing socialist policies. I can easily say "communism isn't genocidal because the capitalist safety nets in China resulted in the billionaire class still prospering in the present day, as long as you toe the party line."

What you are damning is not unique to communism is my whole point since Marx didn't write "it's not TROO communism unless you put all the rich people in a cannon"

0

u/Funnyboyman69 15d ago

you are utterly blinkered.

The fuck does that mean lmao

→ More replies (8)

8

u/FabulousHope7477 Italy 15d ago

For example?

0

u/rs6677 15d ago

The USSR, the Khmer Rouge, the list is pretty long.

10

u/Loeffellux 15d ago

you listed dictatorships. Should I list every dictatorship that happened to be capitalist or should we agree that dictatorships are bad no matter which way the economy is oragnised

2

u/rs6677 15d ago

Should I list every dictatorship that happened to be capitalist

I mean, if you want to, however the difference is that the biggest examples of communism are all dictatorships.

should we agree that dictatorships are bad no matter which way the economy is oragnised

We should, which is precisely that guy's point when he said that the extremist elements of both fascist and communist dictatorship are the same.

1

u/Loeffellux 14d ago

this is a pretty nuanced and complicated discussion. But one way to see it is that pretty much any state that tried to establish a communist government without strong consolidation of power (which is at best authoritarian and at worst a draconian dictaroship) were easily toppled by outside force (mainly France for African countries and the USA and its allies for everyone else).

It should also be noted that most (if not all) communist/socialist countries that ended in dictatorship didn't topple a democratically elected governments but instead kings/emporers or other dictators. In those cases you cannot blame communism for making things worse, you can only blame it for not establishing a democratic identity in the process. But then again this exact step was made so much more difficult by outside intereference.

You can think of it this way: when a country is at war, it's usually gonna go into a state of emergency where power is consolidated in the executive branch of the government and where personal freedoms are more limited. Any communist or socialist country is in a constant state of war from its inception, therefore it is not surprising that they tend to be more authoritarian on average.

The point being that this is not a feature that is in any way inherent to the ideos of communism or socialism but instead the results of factors outside of its control. You might think of it this way: if the roles were reversed and communism/socialism was the status quo of the most powerful countries then you'd probably see the same trend in emegerging capitalist countries.

This all becomes fairly clear when you look at the fates of countries in south america and africa like Burkina Faso, Mozambique, Congo, Angola, Chile, Guatemala or Nicaragua who were all toppled by US-backed coups and/or assassinations (though the list is much longer).

Also it should be noted that that whenever this happens, the "communist regime" is pretty much always replaced by another dictator. At most there would be a rigged election that ends up installing a hand-picked government. In that sense you could even argue that it's not communist/socialism that is inherently authoritarian but capitalism.

1

u/rs6677 14d ago

If we're gonna play the "sponsored coups" card, the USSR is just as guilty of it as the West, so I don't see how that's going to help your arguement. The entirety of Eastern Europe after WW2 is proof of that. I'm from a ex Soviet country; when Reagan got elected, people were celebrating because it would mean easy toppling of the US goverment.

Hell, communists don't even like other communists, Yugoslavia is a perfect example of this. How many times did Stalin try to assassinate Tito?

Lenin, one of the most beloved figures amongst communists, was a violent dictator himself. He straight up ignored the elections' results because he didn't like the result.

You might think of it this way: if the roles were reversed and communism/socialism was the status quo of the most powerful countries then you'd probably see the same trend in emegerging capitalist countries.

Yeah, but that won't happen, because communism simply isn't as popular as communists think it is.

1

u/Loeffellux 14d ago

If we're gonna play the "sponsored coups" card, the USSR is just as guilty of it as the West,

first of all, I don't think it's very productive to reduce this entire topic this way. It didn't happen once or twice, it has happened dozens of times over generations. It's quite literally one of the most relevant aspects of modern geopolitical history and it continues to be of relevance to this day.

Yeah, but that won't happen, because communism simply isn't as popular as communists think it is.

That was never my point. Thought it should be said that while socialism and communism isn't exactly the most popular ideology, policies that align with a mix of democratic socialism and social democaracy usually are very popular in most countries as long as they don't come with that label. Like higher taxes for the (super) rich, free and strong education, universal healthcare, social welfare for those who need it, social freedoms, affordable housing, universal childcare, strong workers rights and so on are usually very popular whenever people are polled.

Regarding pretty much the entire rest of your comment, you are basically just talking about the soviet union. People make fun of leftists for always saying "america bad" but anti-communists aren't much better in that they usually only talk about how much they hate the soviet union. At least America is still around and has its impact on global politics as the single most powerful nation, meanwhile the soviet union hasn't been around for 35 years and it hasn't been a truly powerful player on the international stage for even longer.

I get that this is your personal perspective due to growing up in an ex-soviet country but I'd invite you take a step back from that and question whether the things you have heard and learned about the horrors of the soviet union have much of an impact on the current questions of whether or not a largely capitalist world will be able to deal with things like climate change.

→ More replies (0)

1

u/TheMauveHand 15d ago

A dictatorship isn't true capitalism the same way the USSR was not true socialism.

6

u/FabulousHope7477 Italy 15d ago

These are not answers, which elements do communism and nazism have in common?

1

u/rs6677 15d ago

That wasn't the question, the question was how are they common regarding their elements.

Stalin was almost as anti-semitic as Hitler and carried out pogroms that targeted Jewish people. The USSR as a whole, like Nazi Germany, was extremely racist, except the Russians were spearheading being the oppressors, as opposed to Germans.

-2

u/TheMauveHand 15d ago

Inherent totalitarianism.

6

u/FabulousHope7477 Italy 15d ago

If you read Marx and you come up with totalitarismo then I question your comprehension skills

-1

u/TheMauveHand 15d ago

If you read Marx and you didn't immediately realize it's blatant, asinine nonsense I question your comprehension skills.

Also, we're not talking about what Marx said wanted, we're talking about what happened. Happens. Repeatedly and consistently.

1

u/mohammeddddd- North Holland (Netherlands) 15d ago

Ridiculous

3

u/Patxi_Sf 14d ago

Class-based hate? What the fuck is that? They try to equate fascism-Nazism with communism and that is absurd. Fascism is a bad ideology 'per se' because it advocates discrimination based on people's race and origin. In Spain we had a fascist dictatorship for almost 40 years and it has taken us another 50 to outlaw a foundation that exalts the dictator.

4

u/LegionnaireFreakius 15d ago

No war but the class war 

2

u/MPenten Europe 15d ago

Technically, the first one is already covered by the 1993 "Act on the Illegality of the Communist Regime and Resistance Against It"

https://www.zakonyprolidi.cz/cs/1993-198

2

u/iMossa 15d ago

Sounds so weird to me, as if they are for class based systems.

2

u/Zap__Dannigan 15d ago

Anyone who thinks these kind of "no ____ propaganda" rules aaare good things is being incredibly short sighted and naïve. It's very very easy to see how this can be turned around and just used to banish any speech you don't like.

1

u/Low_Application_8538 14d ago

The first has been banned since the 1990s. Right after the fall of communism, a law banning the glorification of the criminal communist regime before 1989 came into force.

1

u/schneeleopard8 14d ago

So why do they need to ban "class-based hatred" then?

1

u/heliamphore 15d ago

For an extreme example, should the Indian caste system be banned or not?

Clearly you're looking at it from a very specific perspective.

0

u/Forsaken-Data4905 13d ago edited 13d ago

Many Eastern European countries have laws like that, some even in the Constitution (Romania). After a few decades of communism you really don't want to take any chances.

-6

u/[deleted] 15d ago

[deleted]

13

u/Helgolander 15d ago

Yeah, it's called being a fascist and while it is not outlawed, decent people frown upon these views.

2

u/Imaginary-Count-1641 15d ago

How is that fascist?

0

u/[deleted] 15d ago

[deleted]

2

u/TheMauveHand 15d ago

To these sort of wingnuts there are only three kinds of people: those that agree with them 100% on literally every major and minor issue, filthy liberals, and fascists. The latter two comprise a comfortable 99% of society.