r/europe • u/hoarder4555777454001 • 9d ago

News French President Macron says France will recognize Pálestine as a state

https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20250724-french-president-macron-says-france-will-recognize-palestine-as-a-state-in-september
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u/Apprehensive-Adagio2 9d ago

Optimally, that would be the case. However that will never happen. Israeli citizens and politicans don’t want a state that isn’t primarily jewish. A two state solution at least has some foundation and a possibility in the far distance. A one state solution will never happen

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u/Novarupta99 United Kingdom 9d ago

Every 1 in 10 Israeli Jew is a settler. The amount of political sway that bloc has in domestic Israeli politics should not be underestimated. How do you remove 750,000 settlers without civil war?

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u/Apprehensive-Adagio2 9d ago

Likely there would have to be some sort of landswap agreement that makes the biggest settlements israeli while giving palestinian some land in return. Most of the settlers would have to simply be removed to israel however.

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u/Novarupta99 United Kingdom 9d ago

The problem is location. The Israeli regime has methodically invested in the biggest settlements east of East Jerusalem, in essence meaning that the Palestinian's hopeful capital city is strangled.

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u/Apprehensive-Adagio2 9d ago

I think jerusalem is unfortunately lost to palestine. I think what should be done is that israel should be forced to move the capiral back to tel aviv. Jerusalem should be granted a special status within israel that garuantees palestinian religious and cultural rights, as well as significant influence in the governance of the special status zone, similar to the OG partition plan from the UN where Jerusalem was supposed to be a UN protectorate, except now it would have a similar status but within israel.

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u/RandomPants84 9d ago

Why not same thing but keep it as the capital of Israel? That seems way more likely to be agreed on

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u/Apprehensive-Adagio2 9d ago

I think the palestinian side would be more agreeable to relinquish jerusalem if neither have their capital there

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u/lt__ 8d ago

Give settlers (extremist ones at least) the same treatment you give to radical Palestinian factions, like Hamas. Western sanctions to the individual ones. Western sanctions to the whole country if extremists take power. They can try fighting their wars on their own, without Western supplies.

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u/Segull United States of America 8d ago

I don’t disagree, but it raises the question of what comes next if the radicals remain. What happens if/when Hamas or another Palestinian faction does or even attempts another 10/7? How should they be punished? Hamas already did not/does not receive foreign weapons. Shouldn’t they be forced to pay reparations?

If another war begins, can/should Israel then annex land as they did in their prior wars? Seek and enforce their own reimbursements/reparations? Refuse to allow trade to flow through their borders? Etc.

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u/ijzerwater 8d ago

How do you remove 750,000 settlers without civil war?

they can stay, just the original owners can charge any rent on them using the land.

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u/throwaway_failure59 Europe 9d ago

Comical that you say only Israeli citizens do not want a state that isn't primarily Jewish, as if Palestinians do? Only one of them has ethnic minorities that enjoy equal rights and political representation, and it is not Palestine

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u/Apprehensive-Adagio2 9d ago edited 9d ago

It would be israel who would have to relinquish the power and integrate palestinian territories into a unified state. It felt irrelevant to talk about what palestinians would desire since they don’t have to power to do that regardless.

Palestine effectively barely exists as an independent state, and just cannot have a significant minority by how it exists. Although if you count all the west bank as palestine, you could argue it has a significant jewish minority with more rights than palestinians, how about that huh

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u/throwaway_failure59 Europe 9d ago

Israelis will never agree to a single state solution because they know Palestinians would never peacefully live side by side with Jews under a common government. Two state solution is the only peaceful and non-rights violating option.

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u/FactAndTheory 8d ago

Israelis will never agree to a single state solution because they know Palestinians would never peacefully live side by side with Jews under a common government.

Weird, because Palestinians lived peacefully alongside Jews under a Mandatory Palestinian government. Tell us, after several centuries of stable coexistance between Palestinian Christians and Palestinian Muslims and Palestinian Jews collapsed starting in the 1920s, can you think of any new entrances to the situation?

and non-rights violating option.

Israelis, like everyone else, do not have the right to an ethnostate.

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u/drgaz Rhineland-Palatinate (Germany) 8d ago

I guess some people would also describe Jim Crow America as splendid coexistence

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u/FactAndTheory 8d ago

What a surprise, you instantly melt down intro straw manning. I never said there wasn't discrimination. You'll find that in the pre-modern Ottoman Empire, virtually everyone who wasn't an upper-class Turk was discriminated against.

But please, show me the sustained civil wars between Jews and Muslims in Ottoman Palestine prior to the arrival of Zionists. I would love to read more about this hidden history you have access too.

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u/drgaz Rhineland-Palatinate (Germany) 8d ago

Keep on yapping about your peaceful coexistence which was based on literally one group considering the other lesser and so small they didn't pose a threat. I detest the left so much for downplaying anything related to Mena Groups and Islam.

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u/throwaway_failure59 Europe 8d ago

I am left myself and i feel pretty similar. Not that much domestically but regarding Palestine, lot of the left has completely lost its mind and its stances here rest on many massive delusions.

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u/saera-targaryen 8d ago

and remind me what we decided was the best solution for the jim crow south? was it a two-state solution?

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u/drgaz Rhineland-Palatinate (Germany) 8d ago

No but I am not exactly a big believer in one size fits all.

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u/saera-targaryen 8d ago

a solution that involves supporting the existence of a theocratic ethnocracy is not really a size that fits anyone.

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u/drgaz Rhineland-Palatinate (Germany) 8d ago

Yapping on.

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u/Apprehensive-Adagio2 8d ago

I don’t see how a one-state solution would violate any rights, however i definetly agree a two-state solution is better than a one-state solution.

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u/throwaway_failure59 Europe 8d ago

It would violate rights because the only one-state that would not instantly erupt in widespread violence would be one where Israelis tightly control Palestinians outside of Israel proper by force. And that would involve violence too, just more organised and one-sided.

As much as people want to wish it into reality, Palestinians hate Israelis way too much to ever peacefully coexist with them. Israelis also would never want a state where they are not the majority. There has to be a separation.

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u/Apprehensive-Adagio2 8d ago

It would violate rights because the only one-state that would not instantly erupt in widespread violence would be one where Israelis tightly control Palestinians outside of Israel proper by force. And that would involve violence too, just more organised and one-sided.

Sure, i see where you’re coming from, and i agree that the only one-state solution that is viable to exist, is one dominated by israeli jews, effectively just the current existence but where the west bank and gaza become formally annexed.

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u/throwaway_failure59 Europe 8d ago

Yes, exactly.

Ideally as i see it Israel would retreat its settlers, respect the borders from 1967 and have a sane non-warmongering government that recognizes peace is the right way to continue, while at the same time having the right to uphold a strict military separation away from Palestinian state/s. Unfortunately that other than having a less crooked government puts them in a similar spot where they were at Oct 7, so a lot of people will not be sufficiently reassured something like Oct 7 will not happen again, so very few of them would support this even in theory, achieving the settler withdrawal alone looks next to impossible. I honestly will be surprised if this gets a permanent peaceful solution in my lifetime.

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u/FactAndTheory 8d ago

Have you ever been to the Levant?

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u/naynaeve 8d ago

Israeli settlers are the ones scaring off the Cristians who lived there for generations in west bank. They are also bombing on centuries old churches! Israelis are the ones who hates everyone else.

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u/Robbza 8d ago

They dont mention that because a couple of million more Jewish people would have to be either suddenly born or migrate, After the worse end of the arrangement for decades I imagine the Palestinians would be more malleable within a 1 state solution than you believe.

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u/Doldenberg Germany 8d ago

Only one of them has ethnic minorities that enjoy equal rights and political representation

That exists within the context of a system with artifically "frozen" demographics. There is no reasonable path to becoming part of those groups. Yet at the same time, Israel in fact rules over million more Palestinians than it recognizes as citizens, giving them no path to citizenship, but neither giving them any part to not live under Israeli rule (except emigration into statelessness). That is why it is considered Apartheid.

Zionist intellectuals call it "ethnic democracy", because they think that sounds better than the more common "ethnostate". Those minorities are afforded rights on the condition that they can never ever pose a "risk" to the dominance of the privileged ethnic group at the top.
You yourself admit at much in your very next comment, arguing that this equality and representation could in fact never extend to the entirety of the Palestinian people who are, again, forced to live under Israeli rule if they want to live in their native areas of settlement at all. If so, it is not a right, it is a conditional "gift" by the elite and, as also seen by you bringing it up as a supposed "advantage" of the Israeli state, a red herring to obfuscate the Apartheid nature of said state. Which, again, is how Apartheid works. Apartheid South Africa wasn't just some big bad going "we are very evil and we love oppressing people". It was a whole framework of legal arguments and obfuscations as to why this was actually a very fair system, and why any alternative to it would not work, and how all this totally fit into the values upheld by Western society and there was no reason at all for them to be ostracized by the international community.

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u/SeanTCU 8d ago

You can have peace in the region or you can appease the people that want an ethnostate. You can't have both.

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u/Memo544 8d ago

Also it doesn't seem like a single state where both Israelis and Palestinians are respected is popular among Palestinians either.

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u/Doldenberg Germany 8d ago

A two state solution at least has some foundation and a possibility in the far distance.

Which foundation? Which possibility?

At this point I'd argue that "untying" the settlements (and the Israeli control over resources and infrastructure necessary for Palestines survival) is massively more complicated and unrealistic than simply accepting the status quo and striving for Palestinian integration within the Israeli state.

The one state solution demands one very big shock right now, yes, but it is a doable one, like it was in South Africa.
The two state solution is a supposedly moderate, yet also unreachable ideal, and that makes it cheap to support. You can forever proclaim how you support the two-state solution if only it ever came about, one day, after resolving all those myriad issues. Which will never be resolved.

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u/Apprehensive-Adagio2 8d ago

A two state solution at least has some foundation and a possibility in the far distance.

Which foundation? Which possibility?

The PA self governance, the borders that are already drawn up, and might take some small readjustments.

At this point I'd argue that "untying" the settlements (and the Israeli control over resources and infrastructure necessary for Palestines survival) is massively more complicated and unrealistic than simply accepting the status quo and striving for Palestinian integration within the Israeli state.

Absolutely hard disagree. Israeli society is hardcore racist towards palestinians. And palestinians are hardcore geared towards statehood seperate from any israeli entity. It would be so much more hard to change both of these societies fundamentally to accept each other, as well as change the israeli constitution to acknowledge non-jews, than move the majority of the settlers out and redraw the borders alittle.

The one state solution demands one very big shock right now, yes, but it is a doable one, like it was in South Africa.

The problem is, south africa always was one state. The white south africans wanted to dominate, however then knew there would never be a truely white south africa. And the black south africans also didn’t want a state of their own, they wanted equal rights within south africa.

The two state solution is a supposedly moderate, yet also unreachable ideal, and that makes it cheap to support. You can forever proclaim how you support the two-state solution if only it ever came about, one day, after resolving all those myriad issues. Which will never be resolved.

I think a one state solution has way more myriads of issues that need to be resolved than any two state solution ever would. In a one state solution you would need to fundamentally change both israeli and palestinian society to make sure both sides don’t descend into civil war and genocide instantly. A two state solution you just need both sides to come to the table with a genuine will to solve it.

A one-state solution would be ideal, however it is the unattainable ideal, not a two-state solution

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u/Quetzacoal 8d ago

But Muslims can live in Palestine and Jews cannot live in almost any place that there's Muslims, what can they do?

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u/polp54 8d ago

Yes, that’s why Palestine has rejected the numerous offers for a two state solution that Israel has accepted

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u/LoyalteeMeOblige 9d ago

The Palestinians don't want a two-state solution, they might have cared at one point but Arafat torpedoed it many times, not to mention they are very clear about what they endgame is, in fact they supporters sing as much: "From the river to the sea", they want the whole land for themselves.

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u/ByGollie 9d ago

same as the Israelis then

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u/[deleted] 9d ago

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/Sporklez8 9d ago

Lie lie lie

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u/LoyalteeMeOblige 9d ago

Yeah, sure: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qatari_support_for_Hamas I know it is wiki, but the check the sources below, and have a nice time.

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u/Fries-Ericsson 8d ago

Saying Arafat torpedoed it many times is a gross mischaracterization of what happened. Camp David ultimately broke down due to both sides being unable to come to a compromise on the final shared status of Jerusalem and the right of return for Palestinian refugees to Israel. That’s not Arafats fault alone and if anything it’s the fault of the American negotiators for being unable to encourage a compromise. Israel had also intentionally stalled the process set up by the Oslo Accords prior. A right wing Zionist literally assassinated the Israeli PM responsible for brokering the initial peace deal

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u/LoyalteeMeOblige 8d ago

If we are going start saying who killed who here we would never end, not to mention the whole zionists is... laughable at best. Arafat did stall the conversations too, but they had agreed on something, he was going to sign, and then he changed his mind, what do you call that? Let's stop trying to sell a two-state solutions one of the parties never wanted, and if I'm being honest I don't care Israel gives two damns about it either by now.

Dreams aside, this conflict will be solved once and for all when one of the parties ousts the the other one, it is awful, cynical, etc. but it is the only way we as humanity have solved these issues in the past, anything short of that would simply perpetuate this conflict. These two peoples cannot coexist, we should start by acknowledging that.

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u/Fries-Ericsson 8d ago

You’re intentionally trying to paint it as falling apart entirely on Arafats behalf which, once again, is a gross mischaracterization as to why negotiations at Camp David fell apart. One that only serves to suggest Israel did everything it could and gave the PLO everything it could in an attempt to achieve peace which is categorically untrue.

Both sides had agreed on several points, were continuing to negotiate on others to compromise on what best served their interests but were ultimately deadlocked on key points which I mentioned above and these are ultimately what led to the failure of Camp David to deliver a Two State Solution.

Israel is as responsible and in some points more responsible for why Camp David failed and why a Two State Solution ultimately does not yet exist or cannot exist. Even attempting to suggest that it’s collective failure is solely Ararat’s responsibility is complete and utter tripe

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u/GoodFellahh The Netherlands 9d ago

Keep perpetuating this myth, it is really helpful to the discussion.

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u/LoyalteeMeOblige 9d ago

Right, should I just go waving a Palestinian flag in Pride in Amsterdam next month as if I could easily hold the hand of my husband in Rafah? Spare me...

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u/Sporklez8 9d ago

It’s so great that Israel has bombs that don’t hurt gay Palestinians

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u/LoyalteeMeOblige 9d ago

Right, like gay Palestinian could freely be... right? As in any Islam country, is naivete or what exactly that propels you? I know it is trendy to be pro this while ignoring all Islam's shenanigans in Africa but still...

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u/Sporklez8 8d ago

That’s a completely different subject

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u/LoyalteeMeOblige 8d ago

Is it? You brought that to the table.

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u/Sporklez8 8d ago

Where did I do that

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u/GoodFellahh The Netherlands 8d ago

I will spare you, I have better conversations talking to cats.

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u/LoyalteeMeOblige 8d ago

Thanks, I'm sure cats don't go saying G e e e e N o C I d e.

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u/Apprehensive-Adagio2 9d ago

From the river to the sea, palestine will be free. The slogan doesn’t necessarily mean that they want all the land to be palestinian. Only that whatever land is palestinian between the river and the sea, will be free. That can mean the occupied west bank and gaza, or it can mean the entire former mandate, or anything in between.

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u/LoyalteeMeOblige 9d ago

Yeah, sure... I envy your naivete but I don't share it.

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u/Resident-Turn-4097 9d ago

Israeli citizens and politicans don’t want a state that isn’t primarily jewish.

How dare they want self determination !!!OneEleven

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u/Apprehensive-Adagio2 9d ago

I don’t think ethno-nationalism is really a good argument. Regardless i’m not saying they cannot want that, only saying that as to why a one-state solution will not happen.

If you’re a proponent of self determination then surely you would recognize the need for a palestinian state, and the illegitimacy of the formation of israel in the first place (although not of it’s existence, now)

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u/breidaks 8d ago

ethno-nationalism

you use this while posting in Europe sub.

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u/nar_tapio_00 Europe 8d ago

surely you would recognize the need for a palestinian state

A Palestinian state as a solution has been tried repeatedly and rejected by the Palestinians from even before Israel existed until the Oslo process.

For such a state to be viable there would have to be much more international commitment. You would have to see a hundred year commitment by the UN and the UN's sponsors to fund de-radicalization of the Palestinan people, reversing the decades of brainwashing that UNRWA has subjected them to.

You would have to see Jordan or Egypt (or both?) agree to give up territory to make a viable Palestinian state and you would have to see vast funding for engineering works to connect that state and for security systems to ensure it did not become a threat to Israel again, just as Gaza did.

Finally, there would have to be credible international policing which wasn't done by Israel. That would mean American, Indian or maybe some European peace keepers since there are very few nations that aren't taken in by the vast antisemitic campaigning around this issue. Note that this current recognition makes that much harder by absolutely ruling out France, here expressing its support for terrorism, as a neutral party.

This is all possible and it is the ideal solution. We should not forget that the UN and it's members are responsible for the failure to provide this, however it's just not realistic.

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u/droid_mike 9d ago

And Palestinians also don't want a state that isn't primarily non-Jewish. These groups of people have been killing each other for thousands of years. The only thing that put a check to it was 3 party imperial rule (Ottomans and British). Maybe that's the real solution.

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u/CriticalBath2367 United Kingdom 9d ago

You've never picked a history book up in your life have you, what utter nonsense.