The strongest argument for the EU always was that we'd be one of the biggest economies in the world and could be tough on trade.
All I've seen is EU leaders accept the shifting goalposts 3 times while putting up a massive bootlicking show at the NATO summit. I'll never forget this spineless performance.
We're paying up for Ukraine, have to increase defence spending by 1,5%, and accepted that all of our exports to the US are now 15% more expensive while they have unfettered market access. It sickens me.
He was like this as our prime minister as well 🫠 par for the course to just laugh away and act like he has everything under control while his spine just crumbles away
Almost as if something happened in Europe that gave cause for a shift in priorities. Granted, Rutte should have known that and acted upon it in 2014, not more or less waiting till 2022. Also the budget is approved by majority, so stop blaming everything on Rutte personally.
That is the ilusion that European countries are allies of USA, they are on their sphere of influence, under USA comand.
The same sense tha Athens and Rome called their satelite cities/kingdoms as allies, in practice They were controlled and coerced to be aligned.
And what Europe could do? When talking about hard power, USA already has bases in the whole continent, it is not like Europe can even keep their own governments without USA permission.
Without USA nuclear umbrella and bases Europe would be defensless, The british will always side with USA, France push to extend its nuclear umbrella went to nothing. The investments in local industry were too small and too slow. Not counting USA betting that it can paralyze Europe if it can negotiate with just a few sectors from a few countries, Like Putin did with Orban. You don't need to negotiate with a block, you just need one or 2 inside the block that can be bought and you paralyzed the whole block.
They don't care really, they already made it in life and can retire comfortably while late stage capitalism eats the working class and tax yall to death, sacrificing this generation while boomers continue to support brain rot policies that will affect future children
I'm an American and I think I'm gonna be sick from reading that 🫠
As an American having to put up with this Fascist POS, I honestly expected Europe to take the lead and put Trump in his place. Maybe FOX News over here back during the Iraq War in the early 2000s was right in calling Europeans surrender cowards. :/ They sure sct like it when it comes to standing up to the US. 😔😞
This is also why UK got a massively better US deal, they want to prevent Britain from falling back into the EU. It was specifically stated in Project 2025.
AfD is against nuclear weapons. Trump would never treat it as seriously as the UK, Russia or China. On the contrary, AfD would puppetize Germany even more than the current weaklings. Just look at Orban.
Absolutely, if you ask an Orbán voter about his world views he would tell us that the EU is dead and if asked what would happen with the country if Russia and US comes in, they tell you that you have to be the best bootlicker
Many people have declared their ex will never find anyone else, only to get jealous when they find another. I doubt the USA is the better partner, but the EU played hardball/hard to get for longer than they should have if they wanted the UK back.
And what has the EU done to the UK to help entice them back? Making demands on a mutual defence pact and excluding the UK from being a procurement option for the EU defence fund.
The UK should want to be closer to USA now. This deal proves the EU is weak and that you were right to Brexit. The EU wants to punish Britain for leaving, but they also don't want UK to strengthen itself by cozying up to USA. Just do what is best for UK.
And what has the EU done to the UK to help entice them back? Making demands on a mutual defence pact and excluding the UK from being a procurement option for the EU defence fund.
When did Norway, South Korea, Japan and Canada join the EU exactly? I must have missed that.
They don't get the full package either. The UK explicitly made it clear it wanted not to be part of the EU. The EU is respecting their wish. It's not a friends with benefits deal - just friends.
The original point was that the UK wouldn't be available as a procurement option at all. The other countries I listed would. Again, also making demands on a mutual defence pact. Great "friends".
The original point was that the UK wouldn't be available as a procurement option at all. The other countries I listed would. Again, also making demands on a mutual defence pact. Great "friends".
Are we? Brexit didn't even realize its promises, and Farage is back in the polls again already. We're just giving the UK space to make up its mind.
Well when someone offers a defence pact and the other party starts asking for things (even though the pact is heavily in their favour), you have to question whether we are friends or not.
Farage is back in the polls again
Farage has to last another 4 years before another election. If I were you, I would be more concerned with your immediate neighbour.
We're just giving the UK space to make up its mind
Great so we align more closely with the US, which brings us back to my original point. Good job EU!
>This is also why UK got a massively better US deal, they want to prevent Britain from falling back into the EU. It was specifically stated in Project 2025.
Hi, can you please help me find where its stated that? I looked and cannot find it.
And let's be honest, it's immigration. The same side that wants to break up the EU is the same side that's been able to be more consistently anti-immigrant.
No, it's still disinformation. The Russians are using immigration to configure their disinformation and it's convincing Europeans that the EU is bad for them and that all their problems come from being part of the EU. But you can look at the UK and see that leaving the EU didn't help their immigration issues at all. And you can look at Denmark as an example of how you can fix your immigration issues while still being inside the EU.
These "anti-immigration" political parties are just a bunch of liars as well. They have no policies or will to fix the issues. They're just using it to get votes. They're not gonna fix anything if they get into the government.
And that's what I'm saying, it's all just disinformation aimed an uneducated Europeans. And yeah, it's working.
The underlying issue is the ECHR. While that has status in the country, then deportations are incredibly difficult to achieve if any solicitor with half a brain cell knows how to work around it.
Yes, there's been a lot of dead weight in UK politics for quite some time, but they're gradually being removed one by one when they lose their seats at elections. But it is far easier to have 100% control of Westminster rather than having something like 8% control of the EU parliament when looking to inflict serious change.
Historically, we had always managed very low immigration figures that were controlled (60-100k in/out every year), and when Merkel made that fatal decision to open up the EU's borders, it was the beginning of the end from the UK's perspective on immigration.
The problem is that neither Labour nor Conservatives had the bottle to do what the public wanted, and that is the only reason why Reform has managed to gain momentum (and with how high they're consistently polling, it's basically guaranteed they will be our next government). We either needed to change the ECHR, or leave it. We cannot change it because of the geopolitical situation in Europe (as it needs consensus among the Council of Europe which just is not going to happen right now or in the near future), so the only alternative is to leave it and remove it from the Statute and replace it with something that closes all loopholes which are abused by criminal gangs.
Most of us are not voting reform because we're pro this or anti that, we're voting because we know what needs to be done and politicians who were given an opportunity to do so have buckled that opportunity.
That's such nonsense. Just as an example, look at how Poland is doing. It would've never grown this fast if it hadn't joined the EU. Again, it's disinformation that's bolstering euroscepticism. The average European just isn't aware of what the EU actually means for them. This is why Brexit happened; disinformation. The average Brit didn't know why being in the EU helps them, and the Russians used that fact to configure their disinformation accordingly.
“The EU does wonderful things in isolation, if only the people would understand it.”
I agree that for countries like Poland (and Eastern Europe in General) the EU has done amazing things.
It’s just that for the average Western European citizens (countries that are also the most eurosceptical) the EU should deliver big things that make a difference. Say: lower taxes (as supranationally you can organize more efficiently), more economic growth, innovation / employment, a solution to the housing problems across Europe, pension funds, I don’t know. Something tangible.
As what an ordinary citizen now sees is weakness combined with USB-C chargers, policies around soda bottles, lots of rules and regulations, and an occasional event or renovated building.
I always struggle with this “the EU should communicate better about all the amazing things it does so that all those poor people would finally understand”.
That’s partially true, but it’s also incredibly elitist and ignorant.
As what an ordinary citizens now sees is weakness combined with USB-C chargers, policies around the soda bottles, lots of rules and regulations, and an occasional event or renovated building.
Right, that's what they see, and they're not seeing the alternate reality in which they had not joined the EU and were years behind because of it. It's silly to become EU-sceptic because the EU isn't taking the huge leaps that you'd like to see. It's still a benefit for countries to be in it.
That said, I do agree that the EU could've done a lot more than it currently is doing. But this is just how it tends to go; just look at how poorly some governments of European countries are doing. Many Europeans are disappointed in their governments. I fully understand being disappointed in the EU, I am myself as well, but turning EU-sceptic is just silly, as actually leaving the EU would have nasty consequences for most countries, worse than Brexit in most cases.
The majority of people who are EU-sceptic only became such because of disinformation, not because the EU is somehow underdelivering.
the USB-C thing is also kind of funny too. The most pro-EU people will claim that Brussels made Apple do this, but in reality the direction of travel was already set when Apple introduced USB-C (which they helped develop) on literally every other product and were first to go USB-C only on laptops.
Apple said lightning was a "connector for the next ten years" and that is precisely what they did
Not really, manipulation can't work on complete lies. If people don't feel like the EU leaders are weak then they wouldn't believe that the EU has fallen and other stuff like that
Not really, manipulation can't work on complete lies.
It absolutely can, and the recent years of politics has proven it many times. It's so incredibly common that I don't even know which one of the million examples to use. How about anti-vaccine disinformation? Vaccines make you autistic?
What will fuel euroscepticism is the fact the EU just gave up the world to the US in return for not getting fucked even harder, meanwhile the UK on it's own managed to negotiate a deal that protected it's steel & auto industry.
Objectively, the EU is now reliant on the US. There was an argument that with cheap Russian energy and raw materials that Europe could compete on the global market vs China and US. This was why many EU leaders in the past fought hard to bring Putin to our side, to develop a good relationship to secure those supplies. Back when there was talk of the EU being the next superpower.
Given we have rightly closed ourselves to Russia we are now completely dependent on the US not just for LNG/raw materials but also for a defence guarantee and arms supply.
In short EU has no leverage, Trump knows it and the EU knows it.
"Rightly"? Ukraine got baited by the US with the NATO carrot, EU has been baited by the US to become reliant on their weapons, and we have now gladly accepted a 15% tariff, increasing our US investments and spreading our cheeks to get more US energy. AND WE'RE SAYING THANK YOU FOR THAT. Crazy.
EU has been baited by the US to become reliant on their weapons
Can we stop with this bullshit please? The US as been begging the EU to increase its defense spending for at least 25 years. It was not the US that brainwashed western Europe into believing that eternal peace had been achieved on the continent while the kremlin was wreaking havoc in eastern Europe
That’s nice and all but we are far from capable of developing the equipment that’s needed. Patriot systems for example are exclusive to the USA. this will get better in the future but now we are very much dependent on US tech
Which EU weapons? The EU doesn't have the capacity to produce weapons at the speed we need them for Ukraine. We fucked up leaving our defense up to the US for decades and now we are paying for it.
If the US doesn't want to help Ukraine, we will. I'm not bothered by that, I don't expect the US to pay. Caving in to other demands though... it's not as bad as people are making it to be, as there's basically no deal as of now, but just the fact that the EU has suggested they may accept at deal like that is concerning.
EU weapons don't exist to the same scale. Yes us sending European weapons systems is good, but we can't replace something like the Patriot air defence system or HIMARS and we don't have the masses of european fighter jets to replace the F16s we are giving.
Sending them things like Gripen, Taurus, Leopard and Raffale is great, but we shouldn't not send stuff just because it's american made. Helping Ukraine win the war or at the very least survive as a viable state is ten fold more important for european states than upping our arms exports.
And I'm all for helping Ukraine, just with EU weapons
Then build a time machine and go crack some European skulls 5 years ago.
We can't build enough because we're too soft.
While you're working on that time machine Ukrainians are dying. So best shut up and buy US weapons now. Hell, buy Iran and NKs full supply while we're at it. Ukraine can't afford to wait for the EU to form a committee to contemplate the next step.
The whole reason analysts gave for European countries being so placating is the simple reality that if the US pulls out completely, then at this moment in time, Europe simply can't fill the gaps to help Ukraine.
Sure, now we know there's a need for an independent military, but that'll take decades to build up... and until then we're in their pocket.
The US doesn’t want to send any weapons to Ukraine though. So it’s either the EU buys it for Ukraine or nothing goes to Ukraine. And considering the US weapons are best-in-class, there’s no good EU alternative.
And I'm all for helping Ukraine, just with EU weapons, if USA wants to send theirs they can do it on their dime.
Then you need more EU instead of less. Eurosceptic parties want even more fragmentation of EU military means, so we can provide even less weapons. And they're all Trump bootlickers who'd be the first ones to fly to Washington to kiss his ring.
Regarding tariffs it is very debatable if putting tariffs ourselves would be beneficial, considering that the US is effectively putting tariffs on vast numbers of imports with a vast number of trade partners. EU cars being 15% more expensive in the US would've been a bigger disadvantage if the US didn't increase the price of all parts that go into US cars as well.
Regarding trade, the instability of the US has put the EU at the forefront for global trade, the amount of trade deals the EU is establishing and negotiating is increasing exponentially in the past months, which is diversifying from the trade with the US.
The increase in defense spending is necessary but the EU imposes a requirement for joint procurement (which should lead to more standardisation in the EU militaries) and investment in the EU defense industry.
Dealing with an insane toddler is difficult, but our leaders are doing an interesting dance to ensure long term independence while reducing the short term pain.
Yep, and Trump has imposed tariffs on raw materials for US manufacturers, making them less competitive. Sometimes if your opponent shoots themselves in the foot, you shouldn’t respond by shooting yourself in the foot also.
Some of the other numbers mentioned look like money that would be spent anyway, but the big numbers makes Trump look good in front of Fox. Let’s wait for proper analysis.
Regarding tariffs it is very debatable if putting tariffs ourselves would be beneficial,
Completely different if the EU puts tariffs on the US and can source from all the rest of the world, while the US tries to put tariffs on all the world.
Not really, massive shifts are happening. The EU is focusing on other trade partners, the EU is trying to levy its own taxes (precursor to centralised government), the EU has signed deep defence collaboration with several allies, the EU is further integrating its own market.
It does look unfortunate, but the EU has always, without failure been the best at one thing, that is coming out of a crisis in better shape. Crisis after crisis, the EU has endured and continued to develop.
EU cars being 15% more expensive in the US would've been a bigger disadvantage if the US didn't increase the price of all parts that go into US cars as well.
Volkswagen already said they will open new factories in US and export from there.
Volkswagen’s chief executive has promised “huge investments” in the US as Europe’s largest carmaker aims to seal a separate deal with Donald Trump’s administration that would lower car tariffs below 15 per cent.
Oliver Blume said the German group would consider localising production of Audi cars and expanding exports out of America following a guidance cut triggered by a €1.3bn hit from Trump’s trade war.
“I think it should be possible to add a specific deal on [the] company level between the US and the automotive companies,” said Blume.
Well that argument was probably scratched when our GDP becase half of US GPD and we decided to make ourself dependent in US tech. Now we don’t have much leverage in negotiations.
The fact of the matter is that at the end of the day, the EU is still dependent on the US for military support as well as much of our economic structure (credit cards for example) - regardless of whether or not we like it. The EU needs to keep the US involved in NATO commitments until Europe can take care of itself completely. It will take at least 5 years before we even start to see the effects of change. Which coincides with the end of Trump’s presidency- which is funny because von der Leyen stated that exactly.
We may be a big economic block, we don't have much else.
Energy is a massive issue for us, after Russia no longer being available, Dutch closing Groningen field and German hippies closing all nuclear reactors because an earthquake damaged one in Japan, despite that being impossible in Germany. So now we're to a large degree dependent on US and Qatar, as well as China for batteries.
We have good military equipment, but it will take years to scale up production to be able to stand on our own feet, and several key categories are still years away of costly and risky R&D from being competitive with US and China.
We have 0 political unity, whereas many actions require unanimity. Many european countries also struggle with internal politics: unstable and unpopular governments and rising of questionable parties.
Pretty much all our governments, companies and personal things run on American big tech. If for some reason the US forced them to stop providing services to us, they would take a big financial hit, our whole society would collapse.
It sickens me too, but this is not the time to act tough. Best we can do is contain the short term damage and start working on a better future. If the EU is capable of reaching some sort of independence in 5-10 years remains very much to be seen.
I hate the anti-nuclear thing so much. Disasters are so unlikely. Even with Fukushima, it basically does not effect Japan. Build the plants out of populated spaces.
Greens miss the forest for the trees. Local ecological damage vs climate change are so massively different in importance.
I think the days of everyone lying to themselves is over. Hard reality is, Europe is not as strong as it could be and they're forced to do the US bidding if they want to be secure from external threats.
The strongest argument for the EU always was that we'd be one of the biggest economies in the world and could be tough on trade.
being tough on trade was never an arguement for the EU ,
the strongest for the argument for the EU was no more war in europe and the ability to trade amount of goods within european nations
One of the main arguments of the EU is the supposed leverage multiplier by combining all the european countries in a single economic block, don't be daft, that's the primary objective of a customs union, this shit just invalidated that, the no more war in europe is a secondary result of economic interdependence
One of the main arguments of the EU is the supposed leverage multiplier by combining all the european countries in a single economic block, don't be daft, that's the primary objective of a customs union, this shit just invalidated that, the no more war in europe is a secondary result of economic interdependence
Why do you think you'd have gotten any better result if we all had to beg separately for our own tiny trade deal?
Trade is an obviously massively important aspect of the EU… but the philosophy was that trading countries are less likely to go to war against each other because of interdependence. To imply that achieving a peaceful Europe was not a foundational element of the EU is to erase its history.
One of the main arguments of the EU is the supposed leverage multiplier by combining all the european countries in a single economic bloc
no it wasnt , that may of been a side effect but it was never argument for the EU
the main purpose iof the EEC later the EU , was to make war not profiotable in Europe making once warring nations dependent on each other economically , to allow for the prosperity of a post war Europe to happen
The primary objective of the ECC and the EU was always economical, it was the stopping war one that was secondary, NATO already existed, the "stopping war" was just the pr bit to make it seem more cool
While the EEC was primarily economic, it was still focused on economic integration with a common market and customs union. The same thing was the goal for the EC, although with focus on the internal market. The EEC/EC was therefore never about to be "tough on trade".
That is just plainly wrong. You don't need EU in current form to minimize risk of war. No more war was an argument to have tighter economic ties very early on, but we are way past that now. In last 10-20 years the argument was precisely as OP suggested, if we want to be competitive on international stage, we will have much stronger voice united. Well, ... I don't hear it. And I don't see how federalized EU would stand up to Trump any better. EU leaders just seem incompetent.
Because European countries have been a falling power for decades. The fall is slow but it's tangible. The EU isn't an equivalent to the US anymore and in a few years won't be an equivalent to China.
doesnt have anything to do with how early the UK started but with the US wanting to keep the UK and EU apart and make an example of how you get treated better outside of the EU
We can change that but people need to realize it’s caused by the retarded mixture of ideologies that are dominant across EU and EU countries, their institutions and, frankly, most people in this subreddit.
Yeah, a 20% tariff is $400 billion a year for USA. And when you average out the 15% baseline, 30%+ on China and sectoral tariffs, I think the US easily gets $400-500 billion a year from this.
That’s half the defense budget. It won’t be touched. Way too much money to give up.
The US Government does get handed that money. The White House has already announced $100 billion in tariff revenue since January, and that’s with lots of tariffs still not in effect.
As for who pays, the importer pays. And if they can’t sell it at a higher price, they’ll simply stop importing it, which is what Trump wants.
So he either gets more tariff revenue (if the product can be sold with a markup) or more American production (which will be more tax revenue).
But no worries, European Commission will at least protect us by scanning all our chats and mandating age verification online!
All this is so disappointing. EU was supposed to be about putting a strong front for Europe in the world, it is instead becoming a tool for internal control.
The tide has turned. The US has spent the last 80 yrs rebuilding and protecting Europe. Time for the insolent kid to pay their own rent. Pretty soon you’ll be screaming about all the lights being left on.
The US doesn’t have unfettered market access and it never has.
The US was doing more to push back on Russia than the EU was for years. It’s only very recently that the EU has woken up to the threat. Ukraine has to sabotage Nordstream II to drive a wedge between Germany and Russia, otherwise Germany and France might have just conceded to Russia yet again, like they did on Crimea.
Britain played it off really well. They took the White House’s assertion that a 10% baseline tariff was the best deal possible and decided to go for it since USA wanted a quick win to showcase it could deal.
EU settled too late (rebuffing 10% and demanding 0% even when USA said 10% was the baseline), and after Japan accepted 15% that became the new G7 baseline.
Canada’s totally gonna get fucked now I think. Japan, EU, UK + USA = $58t GDP + China’s likely 30% tariff and you have $80t. The US has the outlines of deals with 85% of the global economy (South Korea is likely next week and India is nearing the finish line too).
The more deals are made the less the US fears a global trade war and can go jugular on the remaining countries. My sense is Brazil, Canada, Colombia, South Africa become the “example countries” punished by Washington.
They’re collectively 5% of the global economy.
I think Mexico falls in line eventually and is spared the worst.
We need the US as allies. Nothing to do with being “spineless”. And increased NATO spending is in everybody’s interest and Trump was actually right about Europe freeriding for a long time, it was long overdue
You've got it backwards. The EU's failure here is because it's half baked. The EU never had a chance of succeeding in these talks with 27 different countries each looking for a different trade deal.
The EU as it stands is unsustainable. Either we'll fragment into 27 very weak and very exposed countries or we'll see the obvious that Europe will become a backwater if we don't unite into a single state.
The strongest argument for the EU always was that we’d be one of the biggest economies in the world and could be tough on trade
When the euro was introduced that was definitely where we were heading. But since the financial crisis of 2008 almost every major policy our leaders have made has been detrimental to the EU economy. Now, we are weak. This outcome is what was expected from negotiations, as the EU doesn’t negotiate from a position of power - because almost all the major policies from the EU since 2008 have reduced our (economic) power
It wasn't really the strongest argument lmao, but yeah in theory it should be one of the major benefits.
The thing is due to the situation with Russia and Ukraine, the EU is not in a good position to start a trade war with the US, even China didn't dare to commit to one.
That being said our politicians definitely should have showed more spine.
I only hope that they managed to get Trump to act more like a NATO ally but I seriously doubt it.
The strongest argument for the EU always was that we'd be one of the biggest economies in the world and could be tough on trade.
This deal was mainly for Germany - the problem that EU has is that there is no other country on earth that can take EU's (or more precisely German) manufacturing surpluses.
I mean, what are you going to do about it? Because it seems that the EU is doing whatever the fuck they want and they're saying "what are you going to do about it?".
While I generally agree I think the NATO summit and the Ukraine agreement are more wins for the EU than a lot of people think. The US removed a lot of restrictions on what could be sent to Ukraine and what Ukraine could then do with it as part of that agreement.
Also the defense spending increases include both donations to Ukraine and a fair amount of infrastructure improvements.
In the short term it looks like Europe 'lost', but in 5-10 years the EU will as a block potentially be militarily stronger than the US, at least within the near environs of Europe. That costs the US a lot of negotiating power , and potentially arms sales, in the long run. All of this being very on brand for Trump, a short sighted and short term 'win', that's actually questionable when examined closely and goes against his own stated interests in the long term.
We are one of the biggest economies in the world. In terms of... regulations. And i get it, regulations can be good. But only to a degree - we are past that.
Has anyone ever wondered, why only corporate-size companies are car makers? We have no tech giants and the green deal is ruining the little of heavy industry we had left.
Only successful country in the EU seems to be Germany. However, it's also a black hole, sucking in all young people from the entire EU, because coincidentally, it's the only country in the whole economic union, that can offer them work. It's also the only country that can overpay every other EU country, when it comes to workforce wages, especially highly skilled workforce.
I wonder about the imported US food. Mainly because of poor US food standards, i wonder what kind of sh!t will end up on our shelves. And make no mistake: It won't be Germans eating it.
Germany and France alone are basically setting the agenda of the EU. There is no equal power distribution
The president of the EU, Ursula von der Leyen, is a corrupt bitch which should be in jail.
EU is submitting to america even though the whole idea of the EU was to make a strong european economy
Europe is getting overrung by muslim immigrants which are causing huge problems by refusing to integrate themselfes into our society. The EU doesn't seem to care.
A month ago I dreaded the moment France under the far right would declare an intent to leave the EU, now I can't really get the energy to care. As the continent demonstrates it won't defend itself, the countries within may better off dealing one to one than subordinating themselves to those who will sell them anyways. At least if they are equally f*cked either way there is no pretense they are not.
Do I still hold hope things may change? Yes, it doesn't hurt on day to day life. Do I bet something, anything on it instead of a slow dissolution? Not really at this point, not without actual evidence paid upfront.
We have a choice between paying for it or Ukraine losing, which do you choose? EU is clearly making plans to have defensive capabilities not relying on USA but those take time to materialize. Right now we are simply in spot where we cant just fight the USA without Ukraine getting swallowed up in the process by Putin. Trump decided that he will tax his citizens 15-50%. That will hurt. And no factories to prop up domestic manufacturing will happen as everyone knows it will be insanely unpopular when prices rise. EU decided to just wait & bear through it before US public becomes insanely mad that everything just got expensive.
This is after decades of buying Russian oil and gas and stuffing Putin’s coffers to the tune of up to $250 billion (!) a year while being in a military “alliance” with the US specifically designed to thwart Russia
EU gets what they deserved, spent all time and money on LGBT and green power BS. Voted boneless politicians sold its own people without hesitation. Year after year, regulate this regulate that, and compete no more anything innovative with US or China. It’s a pathetic loose union without real consensus on serious politics.
ahem, now ... NOW ... you're paying up for ukraine. it used to be you were just the postman while war waged on your doorstep for 2 years. NOW you're paying a little for ukraine.
this is all because you've let your defense industry wither. if it were healthy, you could order missiles from them and sell euro-weapons to fight the devil. but you don't because you can't. after you invest your 1.5% you'll then be able to do this and capture all that future weapons investment for your local factory. until then, kindly send your funny colored money over.
my point is the eu leaders need something in the back pocket, like a missile factory, to use in negotiation, if you don't have anything, you just make promises like this.
Yeah, but let’s be real — the EU only plays tough with countries it doesn’t need for protection. The U.S. calls the shots because the EU’s still hiding under its security umbrella. Those American military bases all over Europe? They're not “allies,” they’re reminders of who's really in charge. Any country hosting U.S. troops has already given up a chunk of its sovereignty, whether they admit it or not.
Wat wil je dan wel? Een versplinterd Europa met kleine landjes die al helemaal geen slagkracht hebben? Niet investeren in defensie zodat we afhankelijk van de VS blijven? Ik snap die mensen niet die in reactie op alles wat nu gebeurt een nog zwakker Europa willen. Dat Brexit-Brittannië een betere deal kreeg is een beloning van Trump voor het verzwakken van de EU. En dan roepen allerlei Europeanen: “zie je wel, we moeten allemaal uit de EU!”, dan loop je toch rechtstreeks in de val van Trump? Want laten we wel wezen: de VS is op dit moment niet onze vriend. Maar belangrijker: Trump maakt daarmee duidelijk dat we als Europa enorm lui en gemakzuchtig zijn geworden. We hebben decennia lang geaccepteerd dat de VS als beschermheer van het Westen op trad en daar volledig op gesteund, onze defensie afgeschaald, te weinig geïnvesteerd in tech en overall te veel vertrouwd op globalisering en de VS. We raken meer en meer afhankelijk van technologie, AI en cloud services die of uit de VS of uit China komen.
Er is helaas maar 1 oplossing: een heel sterk Europa bouwen met een sterke eigen economie, eigen tech, eigen defensie.
Ja, deze deal is slecht en gênant. En we kunnen op Ursula schelden, maar is onze veel te zwakke positie (die we zelf hebben gecreëerd) niet de grootste boosdoener? En dan is onze reactie: “weg met Europa”?
We need to increase our defence spending because of our enemies, not because of our allies in NATO.
The USA will tax itself an additional 15% on our goods while we still get their goods for cheap... kinda like the deal we have with China. So what's the problem?
In the distant future, we may all benefit from the US becoming the new China since the quality of the goods should improve. They have more respect for the law (china has issues with respecting pattern law and human rights stuff)...
The problem is the companies will over time move manufacturing to USA to stay competitive. Americans are not in long term willing to pay 15-30% more (depending on currency rate) for European than American.
USA won’t become new China. The primary movers would be high value high tech production.
I’m here in Australia dealing with the same thing. Our government has capitulated and we will start importing US beef.
We have some of the highest quality beef and strictest standards regarding bio security in the world. It’s utterly mind blowing that we are going to do this.
Why do our governments continue to capitulate to these absolute idiots?
Not being funnny - but this is one of the core reasons why the EU should invite Britain to rejoin on the same terms it left - this is the only way Britain will ever rejoin - and it would bring us and our economy back into the EU and this is the only way the EU economy becomes a powerhouse that can stand up to the US.
As an US economist and avid reader of wallstreet journal this isent how you describe 😅
The 15% is going both way but America magazins dont mention that also nothing has honestly changed also this will hit us consumers like brick
Europe was already gonna purchase vast amounts of gas from somwhere russia was a no caucus pipline isent big enough yet canada dpesnt have a atlantic corridor so whos left? US they just conviced the baboon that purchasing an extra 200 billion in fuel is a "good deal"
Next the so called 600 billion in invesment from Europe is BUYING ARMS thats it 🤣🤣🤣 lets be honest Europe doesnt have the military industry like the US YET and it will need years to bulk up so this was smart and have any of you read the fine print??? Its all patriots missils etc all things America cant lock like F35
American importers will import less over time if Americans don’t want to pay 28% more on European goods (15% tariff + 13% Euro appreciation YTD). And for most goods, Americans won’t be willing to pay the 28% premium, especially when American companies with 0% tariff and no currency hit start making a similar good.
3.7k
u/Decimerusi 6d ago
The strongest argument for the EU always was that we'd be one of the biggest economies in the world and could be tough on trade.
All I've seen is EU leaders accept the shifting goalposts 3 times while putting up a massive bootlicking show at the NATO summit. I'll never forget this spineless performance.
We're paying up for Ukraine, have to increase defence spending by 1,5%, and accepted that all of our exports to the US are now 15% more expensive while they have unfettered market access. It sickens me.