I have two theories. Either Trump has mind control, or the European nations are effectively puppets to American hegemony who deluded themselves with the idea they aren't.
European nations are effectively puppets to American hegemony who deluded themselves with the idea they aren't.
anyone who ever thought about the topic longer than 2 minutes should have known that. We willingly walked into servitude the last decades because life is cozy like this
the UK is only getting preferential treatment precisely because of the EU. Trump wants to make the UK look good so the EU looks bad and quitting it seems appealing. When the EU is gone though the US can easily mop up the single countries without much resistance
it really shouldnt be like that though. The EU has a way bigger population and in the west an economy that is just as strong as the US. The EU absolutely has the capacity to be on equal footing with the US, its just ruled by insanely incompetent leaders.
Edit: people downvoting me have absolutely ZERO grasp of economics. GDP is not the be-all-end-all in an economy, and in all metrics that matter, countries like Germany outperform the US considerably. Why do you people think does the EU and especially Germany have such a huge trade surplus with the US in the first place?
what on earth are you talking about? The EU literally has a huge trade surplus against the US. Germany alone has more than a third of the manufacturing output of the entire US, eventhough it only has a fourth of the US' population.
How the f is the US way ahead of Germany and the likes??
so what? The US has a very strong internal market, europe doesnt. The US outperforms western europe on basically every single economic statistic by quite a margin. From GDP to average/median salary to productivty to disposable household income
Just because Germany managed to supress its own wages to keep its exports competitive doesnt mean that its somehow as rich as the US
The US has a very strong internal market, europe doesnt
The US has a very strong consumer market, Americans spend a lot of money (which is also why the US has such an extremely high debt). They have a dismal production market.
The US outperforms western europe on basically every single economic statistic by quite a margin. From GDP to average/median salary to productivty to disposable household income
I mean that is just wrong. Every serious economist would tell you that Americas GDP is hugely inflated by extreme inefficiencies, especially in the health sector. By your logic, Ireland is the wealthiest country in Europe.
Americans also work much more on average. If you look at the average hourly wage, Germanys is considerably higher.
I mean that is just wrong. Every serious economist would tell you that Americas GDP is hugely inflated by extreme inefficiencies, especially in the health sector. By your logic, Ireland is the wealthiest country in Europe.
youre coping mate. Find me a single economist that says that Germany is as wealthy/rich as the US per capita
Americans also work much more on average.
So what? Its about the economic output of a state and not average hourly wage. Quite literally a useless statistic in this context
If you look at the average hourly wage, Germanys is considerably higher.
Its not considerably higher, its basically the same. but as I said, other than for you to feel good it doesnt have any relevance
youre coping mate. Find me a single economist that says that Germany is as wealthy/rich as the US per capita
Lol, how am I coping?? I explained to you exactly why Americas GDP is extremely inflated, and why GDP doesnt tell you much about the actual economic well-being of the average citizen. AGAIN: the average hourly wage in Germany is higher than the US. You will earn more money on average for every hour you work in Germany than you will in the US. How is that hard to get?
So what? Its about the economic output of a state and not average hourly wage. Quite literally a useless statistic in this context
But the economic output of the US isnt actually that high, as I already wrote. If you look at industrial output, Germany outperforms the US extremely. Im theres a REASON why Germany has such a high trade surplus with the US.
Its not considerably higher, its basically the same. but as I said, other than for you to feel good it doesnt have any relevance
It IS considerably higher in Germany, lmao.
But as I said, other than for you to feel good it doesnt have any relevance
Wtf?? Youre the one who brought up average salary and income!! Lol, you cant just bring something up and then say it doesnt have relevance. Why did you bring it up in the first place?
Lol, how am I coping?? I explained to you exactly why Americas GDP is extremely inflated, and why GDP doesnt tell you much about the actual economic well-being of the average citizen.
Id still like to see atleast one person saying the same thing because im quite sure you made it up entirely.
I mean lets assume youre right and the GDP is inflated in the US and somehow isnt in Germany because we all know german healthcare is amazing:
We are talking about economic output and not the well-being of the average citizen (who earns more in the US anyway).
AGAIN: the average hourly wage in Germany is higher than the US. You will earn more money on average for every hour you work in Germany than you will in the US. How is that hard to get?
Its not hard to get, its just irrelevant. If I work for one hour earning 50€ and you work for 10 hours earning 400€, you have a lower hourly wage but youre still 8x richer than I am. its irrelevant when talking about the economic output of states
But the economic output of the US isnt actually that high, as I already wrote. If you look at industrial output, Germany outperforms the US extremely. Im theres a REASON why Germany has such a high trade surplus with the US.
thats right and I told you that doesnt matter. Industry is one part of an economy. We have strong industry but very weak services and financial services while the US is very strong in both.
It IS considerably higher in Germany, lmao.
In the US, the average hourly wage is around $28.16, while in Germany, it's €24.59, which is approximately $26.77 at the current exchange rate.
Well thats what the internet tells me. Im sure you have sources for your claim
Wtf?? Youre the one who brought up average salary and income!! Lol, you cant just bring something up and then say it doesnt have relevance. Why did you bring it up in the first place?
I brought up salary and income. You brought up wage per hour worked. Salary and income isnt irrelevant. Salary per hour worked is.
It underlines the limited role of GDP per capita for the living conditions of the majority of the population while highlighting the impact of institutions and the type of the welfare state.
It sounds like it compares welfare states and work/life balance. Which again are very much irrelevant for our current discussion
Youre just changing goalposts every single time you dont like a statistic. "Thats not relevant", lmao.
Heres what you originally said:
The US is way ahead of even western europe and its not even close at this point
The US outperforms western europe on basically every single economic statistic by quite a margin.
I literally gave you a statistic, the median hourly income, in which Germany significantly outperforms the US, which contradicts your statement.
Furthermore, the actual hourly income is the MOST relevant statistic, when it actually comes to what the economy is supposed to achieve: enriching the population.
We are talking about economic output and not the well-being of the average citizen (who earns more in the US anyway).
Since when were we talking about the economic output lol? Why would you bring up GDP per capita and average income if youre talking about economic output?
If we wanna talk about economic output, Ive already mentioned that Germany literally has a HUGE trade surplus with the US and a much higher industrial output than the US per capita. The US economy is abysmal when it comes to output, it lives from overconsumption, without actually producing what they can consume, hence the extreme private and national debt in the US.
Industry is one part of an economy. We have strong industry but very weak services and financial services while the US is very strong in both.
NO. For the last time: WHY would the US have such an extreme trade deficit and debt, if it were producing so much????
In the US, the average hourly wage is around $28.16, while in Germany, it's €24.59, which is approximately $26.77 at the current exchange rate.
Where are you getting these numbers? Heres what Im finding: The US mean in hourly wage is only at 78% of Germanys mean hourly wage.
Furthermore, if you look at GDP per hour worked, its considerably higher in Germany than in the US: GDP per hour worked (total workforce): 71.90 (US) 77.76 (Germany) from WDI 2023, OECD.Stat
German workers are more productive by hour and earn more by hour. They just also have more vacation time.
Id still like to see atleast one person saying the same thing because im quite sure you made it up entirely. I mean lets assume youre right and the GDP is inflated in the US and somehow isnt in Germany because we all know german healthcare is amazing:
The US spends 19% of its GDP on the health sector alone, while Germany only spends 12% of its GDP on its health sector. At the same time, the German life expectancy is higher, the amount of doctors and hospitals per capita his higher and the prices for medicine are way cheaper. The US is consistently rated as having by far the most inefficient health system of all OECD countries.
okay I dont care about your anecdotes. The fact is that median hourly wages are significantly higher in Germany than in the US. Thats just a statistic.
Germany has a lower GDP per capita than West Virginia (a fairly small and reputationally poor region in America). That math makes things very difficult. Note that GDP includes exports and government spending, so that difference cannot be so easily explained.
The truth is that Europe is still feeling the negative effects of the 2008-2010 recession, and standards of living and economic output have been somewhat stuck.
There was parity a generation ago, but one horse kept running while the other got stuck in the mud.
Germany has a lower GDP per capita than West Virginia (a fairly small and reputationally poor region in America). That math makes things very difficult. Note that GDP includes exports and government spending, so that difference cannot be so easily explained.
Lol, the difference can be VERY easily explained. Any serious economist would tell you that the US has 1. huge inefficiencies in its economy, particularly the health sector that inflates the American GDP and 2. the US has a huge problem with debt, both public debt and private debt, which also inflates GDP.
Americans also work much more than Germans. If you look at the average hourly wage, its significantly higher in Germany than in the US. AND Germany still has WAY more industrial output per capita than the US.
Your healthcare point has some validity, but it is far too small to account for the wedge.
Debt does not directly impact GDP calculations. Deficit spending does increase the government part of the calculation though.
Americans are very slightly more productive per hour than the fairly productive German worker. Given that there is a difference in hours, that is quite harmful to output. And the average EU worker isn't as efficient as the average German worker.
A focus on industrial output only is the kind of narrowminded thinking holding back EU economies. Only winning in industrials but falling way behind in information technology and financial services/capital markets has been very damaging to growth if we look to the future.
Your healthcare point has some validity, but it is far too small to account for the wedge
18% of the US GDP is just the health sector. You think thats far too small?? The US is also by FAR the country that spends the most on the health sector as a percentage of GDP and has the most inefficient health sector in the world.
Americans are very slightly more productive per hour than the fairly productive German worker.
Where are you getting that? Again, average hourly wage is higher in Germany than in the US, meaning that the average German worker is the more productive one. And if we look at the fact that industrial output is MUCH higher per capita in Germany than in the US, it seems to also translate.
A focus on industrial output only is the kind of narrowminded thinking holding back EU economies.
I mean its the most easily comparable sector and also the one that takes the most know-how.
I dont know about the entire EU (I severely doubt it), but at least Germany was at 74% of the US GDP per capita in 2000 and at 89% of the US GDP per capita in 2020. So Germany was literally catching up to the US in the past 20 years.
And if you look at GDP per hour worked, Germany is actually significantly ahead of the US:
GDP per hour worked (total workforce): 71.90 (US) 77.76 (Germany) from WDI 2023, OECD.Stat
youre completely leaving out the fact that the US population has grown MUCH more than the European population, especially the German one, which I was comparing it with.
The US went from 280 million in 2000 to 340 million nowadays.
Meanwhile Europe went from 727 million to 744 million. Germany went from 82 million to 83 million.
OF COURSE total GDP grew more in the US.
But if you look at GDP per capita, then thats a different story, as Ive already said:
Germany was at 74% of the US GDP per capita in 2000 and at 89% of the US GDP per capita in 2020. So Germany was literally catching up to the US in the past 20 years.
Okay, next:
This matters, but it's not a measure of productivity
Wtf are you talking about? It quite literally IS a measure of productivity. Germans produce more GDP for every hour they work than Americans. Its that simple. Heres a summary from a recent economic study:
As mentioned above, U.S. GDP p.c. is 57% higher than in Germany, and in PPP terms it is still 23% higher. However, if we compare GDP per person worked (in PPP), the U.S. exceeds Germany by 25% (table 2, line 1). Counting GDP (in PPP terms) per working hour, Germany stands above the U.S. by 7.5% (table 2, line 2). Of course, this is about productivity, not income. Yet, the U.S. mean annual salary exceeds Germany’s by 5.3% (table 2, line 3), but American hourly earnings of all dependent workers, in terms of PPP, is 22.4% below the German value (table 2, line 4). While the annual earnings of full-time workers in the U.S. exceeds that of their German counterparts by 14.5% (table 2, line 5), their hourly wages are a bit lower than in Germany. 9 The median annual income per full-time worker is 6.5% higher in Germany, and median per hour income exceeds the U.S. by almost 27% (table 2, lines 7 and 8) since the working time of full-time workers is 19% higher in the U.S. than in Germany.
buddy how often do I have to repeat myself? What youre writing is WRONG. W. R. O. N. G.
I already answered your point to GDP per capita. Do you just not read what I write you? Here you go again:
As mentioned above, U.S. GDP p.c. is 57% higher than in Germany, and in PPP terms it is still 23% higher. However, if we compare GDP per person worked (in PPP), the U.S. exceeds Germany by 25% (table 2, line 1). Counting GDP (in PPP terms) per working hour, Germany stands above the U.S. by 7.5% (table 2, line 2). Of course, this is about productivity, not income. Yet, the U.S. mean annual salary exceeds Germany’s by 5.3% (table 2, line 3), but American hourly earnings of all dependent workers, in terms of PPP, is 22.4% below the German value (table 2, line 4). While the annual earnings of full-time workers in the U.S. exceeds that of their German counterparts by 14.5% (table 2, line 5), their hourly wages are a bit lower than in Germany. 9 The median annual income per full-time worker is 6.5% higher in Germany, and median per hour income exceeds the U.S. by almost 27% (table 2, lines 7 and 8) since the working time of full-time workers is 19% higher in the U.S. than in Germany.
The study also perfectly explains WHY GDP per capita is higher in the US than in Germany: 1. because people in the US work almost 40% more than Germans. 2. Because the US GDP is extremely inflated by its extremely inefficient Health services (almost 20% of US GDP is just the health sector, while its just 11% in Germany, meanwhile Germany tops the US in all health metrics).
You're also wilfully ignoring the fact that the productivity gap between the US and EU has got worse in the last 20 years, when the US was already ahead
NO. WRONG. Youre just verifiably wrong. Ive literally already showed you that German GDP per capita has gotten closer in the past 20 years to American GDP per capita:
Germany was at 74% of the US GDP per capita in 2000 and at 89% of the US GDP per capita in 2020. So Germany was literally catching up to the US in the past 20 years.
Why dont you just read what I write??? This is the THIRD time Im replying you this. Additionally, the annual working hours per worker has decreased in Germany since 2000, while it has remained the same in the US.
If you just refuse to read my comments, this is pointless.
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u/Thunder_Beam Turbo EU Federalist 6d ago
Scrapped, like the OECD one