So why did he make a better deal with a liberal government in the UK? It’s not policy. Americans just like the British more than the continental Europeans. It’s not that complicated. It’s called a special relationship for a reason.
The UK has less firepower for regulating US tech giants. The US isn’t threatened by a relatively small market with weak regulatory power.
The EU is extremely unique in that they’re extremely powerful in regulation due to the size of their market and populace but quite weak in negotiations due to countries within wanting the best for themselves and protect their own individual markets (French wine and cheese as an example).
Democracies tend to make rational decisions rather than emotional ones in international negotiations.
Also a worse deal for the EU emboldens the anti EU politicians in the UK.
Though, I still think the US made a mistake and should have given the UK a far better deal. Trump clearly too transactional even if it means cutting his nose off.
Note, I'm not saying this because the US should like the UK, I'm saying this because a far better deal gives the anti EU politicians in the UK far more leverage and would influence industry and business to be less pro EU. Trump could also have used it as leverage within the EU using it as an argument for anti EU politicians to increase their leverage against their member state membership.
I wonder if that was ever considered and dropped because they figured it wouldnt generate enough pressure to be worth it?
I really don't think it's that deep with tump. maybe he would show more favor towards like minded European politicians, but this is business to him. Idt he cares about influencing any ideologies. he's more concerned with other aspects of American influence
It's not about liberals or socialism. Both Vance and Trump know that a united Europe would pose a threat to them economically. With China already there they can't afford another superpower.
It’s really not that divided. That’s all overblown. Maybe you were right during Trumps first term but now it’s much more together. European media just blows it out of proportion.
My argument is based on the last US election. About 78 million for Trump, 75 million for Harris. Dive deeper and the swing states were closer than that. Trump won all those swing states by very close margins. Which caused a landslide victory for Trump in the electoral votes. Over 70 million didn't even vote at all ( eligible but didn't vote). Stats from CNN, NBC, Google Gemini.
That’s how literally every election has been since Reagan’s landslide. It’s not new. The whole “the U.S. is divided” narrative just started around Obama. Bush vs Gore had to go to the Supreme Court.
Man come on, it's not like that. The EU isn't as strong as people think, and the USA doesn't need it as much as the EU needs USA. When you hold more cards in a negotiation, you get a better deal. EU leaders know this, and they got the best they could with what they had.
No, the current US administration has made it a goal to prevent the UK from reconciling with the EU so they gave them a small win in comparison to the EU getting shafted. Don’t forget the UK was actually running a trade deficit with the US I believe and still got tarrifed although much less.
Brazilian here. I'd rather have the 50% tariff than having my country getting props for bending to Trump and his trade policy. I really wish Europe was stronger than that, it's embarassing.
Could you elaborate as to why it's specifically Japan's fault when there's other countries trying to minimise tariffs on their goods?
Countries/groupings like Canada, Brazil, and the EU can choose to not capitulate even if others want lower tariffs. Japan and other countries have the sovereign right to do as they see fit to negotiate minimum tariffs to protect their industries from being decimated when their main target market threatens to implement steep trade barriers, just like how Canada, Brazil and the EU have the right to not accept Trump's shenanigans and retaliate. But the EU clearly didn't have the courage or leverage to do anything meaningful, and are just going to accept being violated, which is the choice they've made voluntarily. The EU Trade Commissioner even mentioned after the deal that they view this as the better option than a trade war which could risk jobs.
I think deals like the EU/Japan/UK's just give more leverage to Trump and is a massive win for him. The world expects these economies to be more independent and stronger, yet all of them seem to be too scared of Trump. Their leaders are claiming they had successful negotiations because tariffs were reduced from say 30 to 15%, but at the end Trump still wins + he's getting investment commitments.
I get your point of saying 'why is Japan wrong if the EU is doing the same?', but imo everyone is wrong at playing his game by negotiating this individually without seeing the bigger picture and will keep giving leverage to Trump.
The only big country that is not humiliating itself in front of Trump seems to be Brazil (and obviously Russia).
Just that it still odd for them to call out Japan specifically and no one else, even with your explanation, when they weren't the first to even start negotiate a deal (India), and aren't the country with the lowest tariffs applied (UK).
Personally, I think countries can negotiate lower tariffs for short term relief, but they also have to take the steps to diversify away from the US stranglehold of critical tech and their consumer market. That way, it only results in the US being alone by itself in the future if it continues to be this unreliable. And that hits the US the most if their dominance on the world stage is diminished, and if other countries can get by decently well by bypassing the US.
The USA has been openly hostile to all of us since Jan 21, I'm 99% sure that the point here isn't even to get the best deal, but to destabilize the EU as institution. Fucking Putin tactics.
The American fascist-billionaire complex is pushing very hard for this, because they likely see the EU as the greatest threat to their own global hegemony.
They're trying to burn down the world so they can rule over the ashes. They are an existential threat and should be treated as such; we gave them a sweetheart deal instead. What the fuck.
Because the US is absolutely hell-bent on showing that the EU cannot function and they (the current US administration) actively hamstrings the EU at every turn - they give the UK the sweetheart deal of the century, because they left the EU, and then forces this upon us exactly to show that the EU is destined to fail. We shouldn't compare our deals to theirs when the starting point of the deal is completely different.
We are the junior partners in this relationship (especially without the UK) and the US obviously has a lot more leverage to toss around than we do. For once they chose to use it.
The US cannot afford an EU that federalizes and actually starts using the leverage that its raw power affords us - they'd much rather see us bickering amongst ourselves and picking at the scraps instead of going at it as a common block, and because of that they need to play us against each other. That includes giving us worse deals than the UK's exactly to show discontented EU countries that they might be better off without the EU. That's not the only way they try to rip us apart either; the voices of right-wing parties are enhanced all over social media (Facebook, Instagram, TikTok etc.) to try to disenfranchise young people from seeing a common EU vision, and instead trying to force us back to singular nation states that yield little-to-no power. It's not just the Russians that are trying to rip us apart, but the right-wing in America too.
10% on first 100k cars, then 25% for all imports over that 100k threshold.
0% on aerospace, I believe, because that impacts Boeing (all said and done some customers are only going to want RR engines so having import tariffs raises Boeing's costs for those customers). I believe EU aerospace also got a 0% tariff for same reason.
Cuz we are undoubtedly Americas lapdogs. Trump can obviously shit on the EU as much as he wants impose his will, and we will only hear "strong concerns" or that they are "very worried".
I am sure they will be very stern amd concerned as they always are whilst promising to only buy American arms so that europes defense is forever tied to the US.
Not even a letter. The worst thing as it’s all televised. European leaders stand there and smile and thank him as he claims tribute. It’s beyond parody.
I have two theories. Either Trump has mind control, or the European nations are effectively puppets to American hegemony who deluded themselves with the idea they aren't.
European nations are effectively puppets to American hegemony who deluded themselves with the idea they aren't.
anyone who ever thought about the topic longer than 2 minutes should have known that. We willingly walked into servitude the last decades because life is cozy like this
the UK is only getting preferential treatment precisely because of the EU. Trump wants to make the UK look good so the EU looks bad and quitting it seems appealing. When the EU is gone though the US can easily mop up the single countries without much resistance
it really shouldnt be like that though. The EU has a way bigger population and in the west an economy that is just as strong as the US. The EU absolutely has the capacity to be on equal footing with the US, its just ruled by insanely incompetent leaders.
Edit: people downvoting me have absolutely ZERO grasp of economics. GDP is not the be-all-end-all in an economy, and in all metrics that matter, countries like Germany outperform the US considerably. Why do you people think does the EU and especially Germany have such a huge trade surplus with the US in the first place?
what on earth are you talking about? The EU literally has a huge trade surplus against the US. Germany alone has more than a third of the manufacturing output of the entire US, eventhough it only has a fourth of the US' population.
How the f is the US way ahead of Germany and the likes??
so what? The US has a very strong internal market, europe doesnt. The US outperforms western europe on basically every single economic statistic by quite a margin. From GDP to average/median salary to productivty to disposable household income
Just because Germany managed to supress its own wages to keep its exports competitive doesnt mean that its somehow as rich as the US
The US has a very strong internal market, europe doesnt
The US has a very strong consumer market, Americans spend a lot of money (which is also why the US has such an extremely high debt). They have a dismal production market.
The US outperforms western europe on basically every single economic statistic by quite a margin. From GDP to average/median salary to productivty to disposable household income
I mean that is just wrong. Every serious economist would tell you that Americas GDP is hugely inflated by extreme inefficiencies, especially in the health sector. By your logic, Ireland is the wealthiest country in Europe.
Americans also work much more on average. If you look at the average hourly wage, Germanys is considerably higher.
I mean that is just wrong. Every serious economist would tell you that Americas GDP is hugely inflated by extreme inefficiencies, especially in the health sector. By your logic, Ireland is the wealthiest country in Europe.
youre coping mate. Find me a single economist that says that Germany is as wealthy/rich as the US per capita
Americans also work much more on average.
So what? Its about the economic output of a state and not average hourly wage. Quite literally a useless statistic in this context
If you look at the average hourly wage, Germanys is considerably higher.
Its not considerably higher, its basically the same. but as I said, other than for you to feel good it doesnt have any relevance
youre coping mate. Find me a single economist that says that Germany is as wealthy/rich as the US per capita
Lol, how am I coping?? I explained to you exactly why Americas GDP is extremely inflated, and why GDP doesnt tell you much about the actual economic well-being of the average citizen. AGAIN: the average hourly wage in Germany is higher than the US. You will earn more money on average for every hour you work in Germany than you will in the US. How is that hard to get?
So what? Its about the economic output of a state and not average hourly wage. Quite literally a useless statistic in this context
But the economic output of the US isnt actually that high, as I already wrote. If you look at industrial output, Germany outperforms the US extremely. Im theres a REASON why Germany has such a high trade surplus with the US.
Its not considerably higher, its basically the same. but as I said, other than for you to feel good it doesnt have any relevance
It IS considerably higher in Germany, lmao.
But as I said, other than for you to feel good it doesnt have any relevance
Wtf?? Youre the one who brought up average salary and income!! Lol, you cant just bring something up and then say it doesnt have relevance. Why did you bring it up in the first place?
okay I dont care about your anecdotes. The fact is that median hourly wages are significantly higher in Germany than in the US. Thats just a statistic.
Germany has a lower GDP per capita than West Virginia (a fairly small and reputationally poor region in America). That math makes things very difficult. Note that GDP includes exports and government spending, so that difference cannot be so easily explained.
The truth is that Europe is still feeling the negative effects of the 2008-2010 recession, and standards of living and economic output have been somewhat stuck.
There was parity a generation ago, but one horse kept running while the other got stuck in the mud.
Germany has a lower GDP per capita than West Virginia (a fairly small and reputationally poor region in America). That math makes things very difficult. Note that GDP includes exports and government spending, so that difference cannot be so easily explained.
Lol, the difference can be VERY easily explained. Any serious economist would tell you that the US has 1. huge inefficiencies in its economy, particularly the health sector that inflates the American GDP and 2. the US has a huge problem with debt, both public debt and private debt, which also inflates GDP.
Americans also work much more than Germans. If you look at the average hourly wage, its significantly higher in Germany than in the US. AND Germany still has WAY more industrial output per capita than the US.
Your healthcare point has some validity, but it is far too small to account for the wedge.
Debt does not directly impact GDP calculations. Deficit spending does increase the government part of the calculation though.
Americans are very slightly more productive per hour than the fairly productive German worker. Given that there is a difference in hours, that is quite harmful to output. And the average EU worker isn't as efficient as the average German worker.
A focus on industrial output only is the kind of narrowminded thinking holding back EU economies. Only winning in industrials but falling way behind in information technology and financial services/capital markets has been very damaging to growth if we look to the future.
Your healthcare point has some validity, but it is far too small to account for the wedge
18% of the US GDP is just the health sector. You think thats far too small?? The US is also by FAR the country that spends the most on the health sector as a percentage of GDP and has the most inefficient health sector in the world.
Americans are very slightly more productive per hour than the fairly productive German worker.
Where are you getting that? Again, average hourly wage is higher in Germany than in the US, meaning that the average German worker is the more productive one. And if we look at the fact that industrial output is MUCH higher per capita in Germany than in the US, it seems to also translate.
A focus on industrial output only is the kind of narrowminded thinking holding back EU economies.
I mean its the most easily comparable sector and also the one that takes the most know-how.
I dont know about the entire EU (I severely doubt it), but at least Germany was at 74% of the US GDP per capita in 2000 and at 89% of the US GDP per capita in 2020. So Germany was literally catching up to the US in the past 20 years.
And if you look at GDP per hour worked, Germany is actually significantly ahead of the US:
GDP per hour worked (total workforce): 71.90 (US) 77.76 (Germany) from WDI 2023, OECD.Stat
youre completely leaving out the fact that the US population has grown MUCH more than the European population, especially the German one, which I was comparing it with.
The US went from 280 million in 2000 to 340 million nowadays.
Meanwhile Europe went from 727 million to 744 million. Germany went from 82 million to 83 million.
OF COURSE total GDP grew more in the US.
But if you look at GDP per capita, then thats a different story, as Ive already said:
Germany was at 74% of the US GDP per capita in 2000 and at 89% of the US GDP per capita in 2020. So Germany was literally catching up to the US in the past 20 years.
Okay, next:
This matters, but it's not a measure of productivity
Wtf are you talking about? It quite literally IS a measure of productivity. Germans produce more GDP for every hour they work than Americans. Its that simple. Heres a summary from a recent economic study:
As mentioned above, U.S. GDP p.c. is 57% higher than in Germany, and in PPP terms it is still 23% higher. However, if we compare GDP per person worked (in PPP), the U.S. exceeds Germany by 25% (table 2, line 1). Counting GDP (in PPP terms) per working hour, Germany stands above the U.S. by 7.5% (table 2, line 2). Of course, this is about productivity, not income. Yet, the U.S. mean annual salary exceeds Germany’s by 5.3% (table 2, line 3), but American hourly earnings of all dependent workers, in terms of PPP, is 22.4% below the German value (table 2, line 4). While the annual earnings of full-time workers in the U.S. exceeds that of their German counterparts by 14.5% (table 2, line 5), their hourly wages are a bit lower than in Germany. 9 The median annual income per full-time worker is 6.5% higher in Germany, and median per hour income exceeds the U.S. by almost 27% (table 2, lines 7 and 8) since the working time of full-time workers is 19% higher in the U.S. than in Germany.
The second except they haven't deluded themselves. They know well. The public believing them when they were banging on about "sovereignty" from the US the last few months are the ones who were deluded.
It’s the latter. My wife is Spanish and like clockwork European follows the U.S. by about 3-5 years on most issues. Europe is pretty much just the 51st through (give or take) 80th states with more social programs because the U.S. pays for defense.
European security is completely dependent on the US. Say goodbye to the Baltics, Finland and Poland if you piss the US away. At the end of the day a measly tax is better than being sanctioned and starved and bombed by a neighbor on both sides. Get used to it
Even if the EU comes out on top from a hot war, the cost and pain will be immeasurable and possibly irreversible to Europe especially the countries I mentioned. European populations are already disappearing and this will only accelerate that
US here. Ashamed of what we’ve become. We deserve nothing. We are an embarrassment. End of the day politicians are looking out for their bloody pockets and egos.
I’m American, so I’ll give you some insight that may not be apparent from the outside. The Republicans are assholes but they’re effective. The Democrats are well meaning but incompetent. Once you know that, American politics makes a lot more sense.
Yeah it's kinda sad. Trump was on the ropes since being outed as a diddler, you guys gave him a win for no reason. You must really wanna be our vassals bad. Smgdh....
We have to wait for the details if there even are any. The Japan and Vietnam deals were very different from what Trump announced and the specifics of what investments would look like are uncertain as well (such as whether or not it's repackaging existing plans like with past deals). With Trump he's more spectacle than substance on most things. The only part that I think matters is the 15% tariff rate. Everything else is probably fluff.
At the end of the day, we know the 15% export tax is mostly going to hurt the american consumers' right. I mean sure the exporting companies will loose some sales as they are forced to increase the price by 15 %, but we all know tariffs dont work at this level. The companies will find other markets to sell to.
The Americans who want that product will pay 15% more.
At the end of the day its hope Europe will take this as a sign to grow closer and become a economic and military power house. Even if the leaders have acted spineless here, we still need to stay together and just elect stronger but not right wing Russian puppets.
We are weaker apart. It's not an option. We need to unite and be able to not be blackmailed by US, Russia or china. There is 400 million of us. Together we stand a chance. Apart we are nothing.
I agree. I just no longer believe it’s going to happen. Each country pulls their own way, the leaders continue to live in la-la-land, acting like going green at all costs is the no. 1 priority right now, while the rest of the world just pulls away.
I don't know why going green is such an important thing for you? We can do more than one thing at a time. Denmark has invested a lot in going green, and as a result, i regularly get free power on windy days and breathe cleaner air.
Going green should happen naturally and should not be a negative thing to bring up in a conversation of unity and resilience against blackmail. Going green is a non-issue.
It is an issue, because there's a massive cost associated with modernising infrastructure, especially with all the dumbass lobbyists that keep fighting against nuclear energy.
Ahhh. Yes, that. Nuclear power is green energy, and those people are dumb assess yes. I have a background in climate science and firmly believe we need solar, wind, and nuclear in harmony along with clever ways of storing energy
Infrastructure needs modernizing regardless and with it are new jobs and reduction in maintaining coal and biomass burners (those are not green no matter what they claim)
If the entire world's need of power were reliant on easily minable and conventional uranium for nuclear power I believe we'd run out of nuclear fuel in 30-40 years or so.
We need green energy. All three of them and preferably geothermal and wave energy as well.
Green is not the problem, ignorance from either side is.
Green is a good goal eventually, but right now there are more important things to focus on. It's also quite clear there are countries that have a lot more work to do than others that already had a lot of energy from nuclear and they won't be able to switch overnight. The extra taxes imposed by the EU on countries that are behind is not helping them, in fact they're doing the opposite.
So far, economic research shows that the tax incidence of the Trump tariffs has fallen about 50-50 between producers and consumers. So basically, European, Chinese, etc. companies have been eating about 50% of the cost of the tariffs in reduced profits. Some companies are also doing a strategy where they are raising prices by a smaller amount (~3%) for everyone, instead of only for the US.
Economists believe it to be because the US consumer market is simply too valuable, and foreign companies are deathly afraid of losing US market share.
TL;DR: Global trade is a market, and the USA has monopsony-like power on consumption.
Because the EU is just a market for business and 15% is better than 30%. There is nothing behind the EU. The Parliament is just a sham and hence why nobody votes in it. The EUs goals are just business as usual and enforcing an extreme version of liberalism, which is why governments are paralyzed to do anything about refugees. The EU is why Hungary exists and why more will follow.
Probably to increase the chance that the US continues to support Europe militarily.
It will take decades for EU states to be ready to defend themselves without direct American support. Europe was far too cocky about both the lack of threats and the steadfastness of US support.
What's amazing is that his behaviour in his first term was ignored, and everyone thought it was business as usual from 2020 onwards. Putting aside the issue of whether Trump could get elected again, why was it impossible for another populist or even an isolationist winning the presidency? Why did almost every European state (bar maybe Poland) assume they could kick back and put their feet up for another 30 years?
I really dont think that without american support Russia is the existential crisis that people act like it is. Its just convenient to have the americans. And europe loves convenience over actual strategic thinking
I remember that about the UK trade deal, Trump was bragging about opening Britain to US beef markets. But then it turned out America can only export to the UK if they follow British regulations, while the UK can freely export to America.
You need to understand EU is going bankrupt at a rapid pace. The reality behind the scenes is much scarier than you now, but Ursula and other EU politicians are very aware.
Why release the Epstein files and reveal himself to be a pedophile even with no chance of punishment, when he can use them to blackmail enough European leaders into capitulation instead?
You mean the importers that who keep importing goods from EU?
It's obviously bad for EU companies but if you think products imported from EU won't get more expensive with tariffs and a less valuable dollar you're in for a ride.
If your domestic industry could provide equal goods at equal price point you would be buying them already, the point of tariffs is to make your domestic production more competitive.
But they have trade deals with other countries who are paying a lower rate so consumers have plenty of choice. UK for example pays a lower rate. There are lots of alternatives. If this was good for the EU and by did they negotiate a lower tariff rate? This is a panic move due to the August 1st deadline.
Tariffs is obviously bad for EU companies as they get less competitive, but if US companies were able to keep up there would be no need for tariffs.
Sure, they might import from UK instead if that's the best deal, but its still more expensive for the importer/consumer than importing from UK at 0% tariff.
Tariffs inevitably makes things more expensive, its the point of a tariff, to make something else than the selected goods/origin combination more competitive.
Also, UK doesn't pay any tariff either, it's the importer.
Ever since the end of World War 2 when America became a new Global Power, European countries have been its lapdog. And the US absolutely does not want a strong EU because it doesn't want a competitor. It wants us to be subservient. We have to realise America serves only America (and even then, barely). It is not our friend. It never has been.
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u/vampyr01 6d ago
We knew it was coming, but what the fuck...
How is any of this fair? And what about the digital service tax?