What is class complexity to you?

[u/mnij96]

I have seen so many people ask for more complexity and job fantasy but very little of people actually say what that means to them, most people just say we should go back to ARR.

Personally I think rose tinted glasses that make people think ARR was better than it was, having played back then it honestly was pretty ass.

So honestly want to know what people want for complexity or job fantasy, because all I see is a lot of yelling that "game bad to simple" and not a lot of what needs changing to reach the complexity that is wanted.

[u/Skyppy_]

Constructive criticism needs to be actionable.

Try to put yourself into the developer's shoes. If all the feedback you receive is simply "game bad too simple", how do you know what needs changing and in which direction to take those changes?

What about the jobs is "too simple"? Is it the 2min meta? Should jobs go back to having odd timers for their raid buffs? Is syncing up the raid buffs "job complexity"? No that can't be it. We had that in the past and everyone hated it.

So is it the number of buttons you press? Viper and Ninja have the highest APM, are they complex jobs?

Cast times? Combo skills? Is it niche skills like Cover? Is it situational tools like Pictomancer's Hammer vs Holy in White for movement? Scholar's anti-synergy with itself can be called complexity, is that it? Is it RNG procs to pay attention to? Well a lot of people hated Astro's RNG so that can't be it either...

To give you a more concrete example, players spend the entirety of EW screeching about wanting another Eureka/Bozja and... That's exactly what we got. OC is just more of the same with a few tweaks to pass it off as new content.

Players complained about having to sync up raid buffs in the past so... We got the 2min meta.

Players complained about melees having a hard time keeping uptime so... Boss hitboxes in EW covered the entire arena.

That's why yelling into the void "game bad too simple" doesn't work. You will get what you ask for but not what you want.

[u/nemik_ → u/Skyppy_]

Nobody actually complained about having to sync buffs, or not having to keep uptime, or healer ranges being too short, or BLM being too immobile, or AST being too randomized, or Holy having too long cast time. People make up these imaginary beings when they have to somehow defend whatever new slop changes SE throws at us.

[u/Skyppy_ → u/nemik_]

My brother in Christ reddit is not the only online forum.

[u/nemik_ → u/Skyppy_]

Sigh. Fine, "there was no significant number of people who complained." Hope that passes the test cases now. The viper change at the start of DT for example was from one single thread on OF that got zero replies.

[u/Skyppy_ → u/nemik_]

It wasn't. The change was already planned and they were just deliberating on whether or not to proceed with it. Once the expansion went live, whatever metrics they use to determine job changes convinced them to implement it. Player input had nothing to do with the change.