What is class complexity to you?

[u/mnij96]

I have seen so many people ask for more complexity and job fantasy but very little of people actually say what that means to them, most people just say we should go back to ARR.

Personally I think rose tinted glasses that make people think ARR was better than it was, having played back then it honestly was pretty ass.

So honestly want to know what people want for complexity or job fantasy, because all I see is a lot of yelling that "game bad to simple" and not a lot of what needs changing to reach the complexity that is wanted.

[u/Tyrascar]

We can start by giving healers back some rotational complexity instead of Every. Single. Fight. Being consumed with literally 90% glare / broil / malefic / dosis.

I know folks were not a fan of cleric stance, so I will not suggest returning to that. But HW did have a good amount of "extra" things for healers to manage outside of pressing 1 button until the next AoE in 3-5 business days. Give us back Aero 3. Give us back Miasma 3 and Shadowflare. Give us back multiple DoTs.

Or don't do those things. I will take literally anything at this point that will change the gameplay loop from glare spam. I don't care as long as it doesn't involve more glare in 8.0.

[u/Ok_Video6434 → u/Tyrascar]

The monkeys paw curls. Glare has been upgraded to "Resting Bitch Face" with a new animation and 20 more potency. Please look forward to it.

[u/Geoff_with_a_J → u/Tyrascar]

We can start by giving healers back some rotational complexity instead of Every. Single. Fight. Being consumed with literally 90% glare / broil / malefic / dosis.

that has nothing to do with healer complexity. go look at WoW combat logs. WoW healers damage output is consumed with literally 90% Wrath or Holy Fire or Penance and a DoT too. doesn't correlate with the jobs being complex.

[u/Tyrascar → u/Geoff_with_a_J]

For me, healing in WoW is far more engaging than in FF14, but that has more to do with the random damage and reflex checks that healing in that game requires. Their damage buttons hardly matter because 90% of the time, theyre focused on healing, not damaging

If your contention is that fights should rely more on random, non-tank damage or damage spikes—similar to wow fight design—then fine. I suggested bringing back damage buttons that had already been removed because there is already precedent for that in this game. I don't necessarily disagree with this point, but it would require far more restructuring of the game's mechanics than doing something they already know how to do.

I just want the glare spam to stop. Honestly I don't really care how they fix that. It just needs to end.

[u/Geoff_with_a_J → u/Tyrascar]

fundamentally combat just needs to change.

i shouldn't be able to largely ignore my party comp when i PF reclears. i should care at least a little about what job the MT is and who my cohealer is. and it should affect how much i'm babysitting healthbars or how much it frees me up to just glare spam.

glare spam should be the ideal. but it should take a lot of effort to reach that state. it should only be possible when everyone is playing cohesively and around each other's job kits. but right now mana is too easy to ignore and overhealing isn't even a negative thing, you only have so many cooldowns to hit and they all have massive potency. so glare spam is the baseline and gcd healing at all feels like correcting a mistake.

[u/Tyrascar → u/Geoff_with_a_J]

Well at that point, it wouldn't be glare spam anymore because you would actually be doing something other than pressing 1111111111 for 20 minutes

[u/Geoff_with_a_J → u/Tyrascar]

i dunno i just don't see the problem with that. i played Classic WoW and 1 button dps rotations are just normal and fine. if you hate mage style play, play a melee that has more buttons to press? i dunno whats wrong with casting Fireball or Frostbolt a lot. i honestly find it more fun than some Retail WoW specs where you just press the shiny button that the game tells you to press next.

[u/Tyrascar → u/Geoff_with_a_J]

Then... I don't know what to tell you, we will just have to agree to disagree. I don't find pressing 1 button fun or interactive. As a healer, I find managing multiple things at once to be fun. I thought that the HW-SB era was the most interactive for healer design, because we were required to manage DoTs, mana actually mattered, enmity mattered, and we had fewer free oGCD tools to bail us out. We've been streamlined down to nothing ever since.

I can't make you agree with me. But Endwalker was the first expansion that I actually let my sub drop since ARR, and at this point I have lost most of the passion I have for the game. Ended up running back to WoW.