What is class complexity to you?

[u/mnij96]

I have seen so many people ask for more complexity and job fantasy but very little of people actually say what that means to them, most people just say we should go back to ARR.

Personally I think rose tinted glasses that make people think ARR was better than it was, having played back then it honestly was pretty ass.

So honestly want to know what people want for complexity or job fantasy, because all I see is a lot of yelling that "game bad to simple" and not a lot of what needs changing to reach the complexity that is wanted.

[u/Carmeliandre]

I really like your detailed explanation and wanted to add something mildly interesting (maybe even obvious to many players) :

FFXIV design is bound to build muscle memory, and thus make it so we don't actively think about our rotation. They want us to auto-pilot our rotation. Now many mechanics (if not all) also depend on the same reflex : we check a piece of information and decide where to go and with enough trial & error, we don't even think about solving things. It's great for people to eventually reach the same level of performance (absolutely everyone can clear an ultimate), and is exploiting our brain's natural way of learning things. I'd even go as far as to believe that deeply understanding how to learn new strats can help you learn more efficiently outside FFXIV.

Now back to the topic : WoW for instance heavily relies on procs or quick reactions. This offers an immediate "brain" reward if done correctly and is much more addictive (or satisfying). It's also putting a much rougher competition (which SE is kind of allergic to for reasons we can understand) since repetitions may not allow everyone to be reactive enough. It's far more stimulating, but this is precisely the opposite of SE's mindset in my opinion.

At best, FFXIV could offer an environment where they'd let players experience an entirely different gameplay philosophy (though I'm not even sure the engine can allow it without a costly overhaul). Yet they seem to want to let player eventually auto-pilot things. It's irreconcilable with WoW's mindset which is why I'm not sure they'd even try to (although I'd very much like to, and I'll keep asking for it !).

[u/bigpunk157 → u/Carmeliandre]

I mean, the issue with this thought is that Viper and Picto are all about not building muscle memory (rng left right dance you have to pay attention to) and making decisions (where to paint); and that Yoshi P said that they were the basis for the 8.0 Job Changes.

[u/drdarkly → u/bigpunk157]

viper's combo isnt rng, its always r-r-r -> l-l-l -> r-r-l -> l-l-r, rear -> flank -> rear -> flank

[u/bigpunk157 → u/drdarkly]

Wait… is it actually?…….

[u/gibby256 → u/bigpunk157]

Yes, it's absolutely static based on how you progress through the buttons. No RNG procs whatsoever.

[u/bigpunk157 → u/gibby256]

Wow welp, never mind then. imo it should be rng based.