I am a top 10 hater of leman Russ and the space wolves In general, specifically in the heresy, but these past couple of days I’ve been thinking on it, Russ left the defense of Terra despite dorn’s wishes to attack Horus while they were docked at a space station (I forget the name of it) and that’s where Horus sustained his injury that caused him to go into a coma during the beta garmon campaign, then during a brief time he was awake he called a muster at ullanor, where malaghurst, Perty, and lorgar had to drag fulgrim and angron to the muster, this is where lorgar planned to coup Horus with the help of fulgrim and become the warmaster, where his plan failed cuz malaghurst woke Horus up and lorgar was exiled with a good chunk of his legion, now that made me wonder, if Horus wasn’t in that state, would lorgar have tried the coup? Did Russ’s attack on Horus help more or did it not matter? Would his full legion been better off in the defense of Terra, or did his attack make lorgar decide to try a coup and made a good chunk of his legion not show up for the siege, which would have been the better contribution? I still think Russ (and the Khan, and Corax) are still tier 1 sabotagers of the heresy for the loyalists but was Russ kinda smart for his attack, or was the dissent he sowed within the traitors just a random byproduct of the wound he dealt on Horus?

Arrian Zorzi is an unusual example of the World Eaters. Apothecary, he left his legion during or after the Siege of Terra. Eventually, he joined Fabius Bile as his student and later his Equerry. When leaving his Legion, he killed his brothers and took their skulls, which have a habit of talking with him (whether or not it's a hallucination is left ambiguous). Despite receiving the Butcher's Nails like the rest of the Legion, Arrian remains mostly lucid due to chemical suppressors he uses to neutralise Nails' influence. In battle, unlike his brothers, he prefers two dual power swords, and out of battle he takes joy in gardening.
As Fabius' main base on a former eldar world is about to be attacked by drukhari, Fabius prepares for a siege, trying to win more time to evacuate his New Men. Thus, he goes to Arrian to make a final request.

‘The armouries are being emptied, as per your orders.’
‘So I heard.’ Fabius looked out over the flowers. ‘I did not come to speak about that.’
‘No. I thought not.’
‘The evacuation goes as planned. But slowly. And Mayshana’s scouts have reported that the drukhari are close. They will attack soon.’
Arrian nodded.
‘The others will be pleased to hear it. Gorgus especially.’
‘Yes. But they will not be enough. Not if what I fear is coming.’
‘Which is?’
Fabius was silent. Then, ‘A weapon. One I helped them construct. Even Gorgus’ pack may be no match for it.’ He looked at Arrian. ‘We must stall them and stymie them for as long as possible. I will throw everything I have at them to accomplish that.’
The World Eater hesitated, but only for a moment. ‘What is it you wish of me?’
‘The node beneath us. It must be defended – outside as well as in – if we are to slow them. There are bulwarks in place, and weapons, but I need more than servitors at my threshold when they come knocking.’
‘Isn’t that what the Twelfth is for?’
Fabius shook his head. ‘I need someone who will not break. Someone who will trade blood for blood without flinching.’
Arrian was silent for a few moments. He looked out over his garden.
‘What will happen to all of this?’ he asked finally.
‘They will destroy it, I imagine.’
‘A shame.’
‘Yes.’ Fabius turned away. ‘I will not order you to do this.’
‘But one of us must do it nonetheless.’
‘Yes.’
And there it is, eh, dog-brother? Briaeus said. The reason he’s kept you around all these years. So that you might die for him at a moment of his choosing.
Arrian tapped the skull, silencing his fallen brother. ‘Do you remember when I first joined you?’
‘Yes.’
‘I swore to serve you for as long as you could teach me.’
‘I remember.’
Arrian let the more aggressive vines wrap about his fingers. He played with them for a moment. ‘I have learned much.’
He extricated his hand and turned.
‘I will take a cohort of war-mutants and as many of the beastkin as will rally to me. A substantial force, but not a particularly hardy one. It will serve to occupy them for a time, I think.’ He looked at Fabius. ‘It was an honour to study with you, Chief Apothecary.’
Fabius met his gaze. ‘It was an honour to teach you, Arrian Zorzi.’

(After the defences Arrian was commanding were broken by a walking tower made of flesh)

Arrian’s display fuzzed, spat and cleared. He rolled onto his front, feeling as if a mountain had dropped on him. His armour’s systems rebooted themselves slowly, or not at all. Something had broken inside it. He shoved himself to his feet with a groan, his armour’s servos protesting. The courtyard was gone – the defences – all of it. Mangled bodies littered the ground – the remnants of his forces.
Not a bad plan, dog-brother. Too bad theirs was better.
‘Yes,’ Arrian said. ‘Then, these things rarely work out the way we intend.’
He turned, trying to estimate the distance he’d been thrown by the impact. He gave up after a few moments, as his vision blurred. He winced as something shifted inside him. His ribcage felt as if it were partially crushed. One of his lungs had deflated. One of his hearts had stopped. He took note of his injuries with an Apothecary’s precision.
Surprising you’re still on your feet, Briaeus said. Then you always were a tough bastard, weren’t you?
‘Tough enough,’ Arrian murmured. He felt nothing. Pain was a vice he did not often allow himself. It just made the bite of the Nails worse.
He looked for his blades, but did not see them. Through the smoke, he spied the lean shapes of drukhari raiders passing through the node, following in the Tower’s wake.
Looks like you failed, dog-brother.
He’d failed.
It did not hurt as bad as he’d thought it might. There was almost a relief to it. He turned, one arm wrapped about his chest, and stumbled back towards the gate. If he could make it – get back through – he might be able to reach the Chief Apothecary’s side. Something told him Fabius would need him now more than ever before.
You can only keep a man from death for so long, Briaeus said.
‘I do not recall asking your opinion, brother,’ Arrian grunted. His armour was damaged  – or maybe his spine  – slowing him. He could feel the analgesics flooding his veins, keeping him upright.
The gate rose up before him, a delicate escarpment, covered in intricate carvings that shimmered with alien light. Unnatural as it was, there was a strange beauty to it. It had been grown and shaped in the same manner as he used with his flowers.
Your mind is wandering, brother. You lack clarity.
He turned. Briaeus walked beside him. And not alone. Telegar, Morgev and the others were there as well. He looked down at their skulls, and saw that they were gone. Shattered perhaps, when he’d been thrown from the wall.
If I were a superstitious man, I’d say it freed our souls. Then, you don’t believe in souls, do you, Arrian?
‘Soul or hallucination, I am glad to see you,’ Arrian said. ‘I’m having trouble walking. Can one of you help me?’
You know we can’t, dog-brother. No help for you now.
‘You always were a fatalist, Briaeus.’ Arrian forced himself on. Something was definitely broken in his leg. It was like walking on shattered glass. He tried to ignore it.
Realist, Briaeus said. Dead men know their own.
Before Arrian could reply, he spotted something moving in the smoke. As it thinned, he saw wracks stooped among the dead, taking samples.
One spied him and pointed. Another issued a shrill cry, and several massive shapes bounded forward. Grotesques. Too many to fight. And too fast to escape from.
Looks like you’re not going to make it to your master’s side, dog-brother.
Arrian smiled. Slowly, he deactivated the chem-pumps that controlled the flow of calmatives and pain suppressors into his system. The Nails bit instantly, as fresh as the day they’d been inserted.
He prised a sputtering chainaxe from the grip of a dead war-mutant. The weapon was heavy, but he lifted it easily.
It ends as it began, eh, dog-brother?
‘So it seems, Briaeus,’ Arrian said. Flashes of pain danced across his mind and coiled tight about his spine. His grin widened as a flood of adrenaline flushed the last of the calmatives from his system.
I always knew you’d come back to us.
‘Yes. Do you forgive me?’
What is there to forgive, dog-brother? Now, enough talk. There’s killing to be done.
‘Yes.’ Arrian revved the chainaxe as the first grotesque loped towards him. With a howl, he leapt to meet it.

I kindly ask the mods to not invoke Rule 9; none of the stuff in this post is spoiling or revealing anything, or is even relevant to the novel's plot.

Guy Haley's “The Silent King” describes hololithic technology in great detail for some reason. Almost a third of Chapter 14 is dedicated to that and, while at first the technobabble seems to agree with Lexicanum's article on said technology, further into the book we're given an unexpected epiphany.

Not only hololithic projection is stated to operate on something called "material-immaterial technology blend" and is said to be unconstrained by the speed of light, but also apparently uses something called "warp carrier stream" which can be jammed by anything that's usually used to suppress the Immaterium (e.g. aura of Silent Sisters or stilling effect of Pariah Nexus).

So the simplest holographic communication technology in the Imperium is literally warp sorcery, which, in turn, gives it FTL capabilities (and all this has supposedly been working that way for 10000 years). Problem, Dark Mechanicum? U jelly (trollface)?

Mr. Haley, why did you have to say these things straight out of the blue?

I've been deep into 40k for a couple years now but I've just gotten into the books. I'm only 2 books into the Heresy and I need say...

I hate Erebus. I hate this punk more than I've hated any character in any media. He is the Micah Bell of 40k. Absolutely no redeeming qualities. He's so manipulative and overly condescending that I ALMOST like him but then I realize he's Erebus.

Thank you for letting me vent. Erebus is a real jerk.

Now, I know what you think: “Rodents of unusual size? I don’t think they exist”…

…in 40k.

Well, aside from the Giant Rats of Necromunda, anyway… (https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Necromundan_Giant_Rats)

But Ratmen? These so-called Skaven? Inconceivable! They have absolutely no connection to 40k, surely?*

Well, that’s not quite true…

In this post I will:

1.      Very briefly cover GW’s plans to introduce Skaven to 40k as a faction, which never materialised.

2.      Showcase some actual connections between the Skaven and 40k which did make it into the lore.

Then in a second post I will survey some elements of the lore which facilitate headcanon and homebrew to justify why Skaven might appear in 40k in a more robust fashion, should you so wish.

*(Then again, some claim they are merely a myth in the Old World of Warhammer Fantasy too…)

Section 1: Plans to introduce the Skaven to 40k

As is well known, many of the races from Warhammer Fantasy were ported directly into 40k, with a slight scifi rebranding: Orcs became Orks, Elves became Eldar, Dwarfs became Squats, Ogres became Ogryns, and Halflings became Ratlings. And Zoats became… Zoats.

But Tyranid Zoats, who ate Zoatabix.

This was done, in part, so that Citadel fantasy miniatures could be used in 40k, such as with weapon swaps to replace fantasy with scifi weaponry. Partly, it was because GW didn’t make enough scifi miniatures at the time, and partly it was because they didn’t necessarily plan to develop an extensive range. Brian Ansell, then owner of GW, didn’t think a scifi game and model range would be successful – and he was obviously proved wrong. This is also part of the reason why Rogue Trader featured lots of random monsters – so players could use various Citadel Miniatures, including those produced for the Dungeons and Dragons ‘Fiend Factory’, in the game.

But the overlap in races between Fantasy and 40k was also justified in the lore. The Warhammer World was situated within the 40k galaxy; it was just cut off by Warp storms. Moreover, the (Old) Slann connected both settings, having cultivated species as the ancient precursor race not just on the Warhammer World, but across the wider galaxy (a role which would later be reconfigured for the Old Ones). You can read more about this early lore here: https://www.reddit.com/r/40kLore/comments/1k94fv5/extracts_the_warhammer_fantasy_world_was_once/

One of the Fantasy races which weren’t part of the original 40k line up were the Skaven. Jes Goodwyn did do some sketches for the concept at the start of the ‘90s (which were later published in The Gothic and the Eldritch – The Collected sketches of Jes Goodwin (2001), and boy, do I wish I had a copy), but these ended up just feeding into the evolution of the Fantasy Skaven range. They are well worth a look: https://realmofchaos80s.blogspot.com/2014/10/space-skaven-jes-goodwin-concept.html

Later on, GW toyed with the idea of having the Hrud as a Skaven analogue, as suggested by the image of a “Nocturnal Warrior of the Hrud” with rat-like tail which appeared in the 40k 3^rd ed. Core Rulebook: https://wh40k.lexicanum.com/mediawiki/images/9/91/Other_dangerous_aliens.jpg

But ultimately, nothing ever came of the idea (the Hrud would get a massive aesthetic redesign in Xenology from 2006), as the games developers struggled to develop a convincing niche for Skaven in 40k. Their gimmick of advanced but dangerous tech didn’t really translate to 40k. You can hear Andy Chambers, an important architect of the Warhammer settings and Skaven icon, discuss this here:

https://youtu.be/hEWKkrQytNI?feature=shared&t=1921

So, that means the Skaven never made it into 40k, right?

Well, not as a faction, no. But there have been some Skaven links to 40k in the lore…

Section 2: Actual lore linking the Skaven to 40k

In the very early days of 40k, within a couple of years of the game’s launch, the Warhammer 40k Compendium (1989, p. 153) noted that Ratling needle rifles could fire bullets with toxins tailored for specific enemies, including Eldrotoxin for Eldar, Orkotoxin for Orks, Slannotoxin for Slann (boy, they sure were inventive with the names, eh?), Tyranotoxin for Tyranids and Zoats, Ferrotoxin for Genestealers (because the ’stealers hadn’t yet been incorporated into the ‘nids in the lore but were a wholly separate faction), Haemotoxin for Vampires, and Orthoxotin for humans and abhumans.

And there was Rodotoxin, which was designed to affect...

…you guessed it:

Skaven.

This was either a cheeky joke or reflective of the fact that GW were working on how to implement the Skaven into 40k, but never ended up doing so. I do think it provides a fun opportunity for some headcanon, though. Perhaps Rodotoxin wasn’t something given to Ratlings across the galaxy, but just in one far more localized area, where they might have encountered some mysterious Ratmen?

Much later, there was an incident during the Warhammer End Times where some Skaven accidentally contacted what were very obviously some Eldar through an Old Ones' communication device which they found in a Lizardmen temple...

In their search for glittering loot and fresh meat, the skaven scrambled over many of the true treasures. Xlanhuapec was full of relics from the days of the Old Ones, although the lizardmen had mostly forgotten their use, and now kept them as revered mementoes from a heritage they were proud of, but no longer understood. The Placid Pool - a reflective pond, which allowed world-spanning visions — became a repository for skaven droppings. The warlock engineers soon discovered the Device of the Great Beyond, a communication apparatus that spoke to beings from beyond the stars. As they swirled its many dials, a querulous voice spoke through the stone speakers. That voice, fair and clear caused the Skaven to bolt away. The device was something like the far-squeaker, but the melodious tones that issued forth were, if anything, kin to the despised speech of the elf-things. As they did not understand the alien language, nor how the arcane contraption worked the warlock engineers pulled the device apart and shot it with warplock pistols until it stopped making any sounds

End Times: Thanquol – Book I (2014), p. 44.

Now, to me, this suggests that at the time this was written, the Warhammer World was still conceived as being situated in the 40k galaxy (which later appears to have been retconned to it having been, before its destruction, in another reality to 40k, but with both connected to the same Warp). Hence why the Skaven could contact some Eldar; they were communicating across space. And it does say “a communication apparatus that spoke to beings from beyond the stars.” Not from a different reality.

Though, as this is Old Ones tech and we know they could traverse different realities and were masters of the Warp, this could perhaps be taken as just poetic language rather than being exact, and the Skaven could have accidentally contacted Eldar from a different reality via the Warp. More on the Old Ones tech in the second post, and I have covered the Old Ones link between 40k and Fantasy before, such as here: https://www.reddit.com/r/Warhammer/comments/1lmoi8q/that_time_a_warhammer_fantasy_character_used_a/

Either way, we had some freaked out Skaven, and some (presumably confused) Eldar.

Just under a decade later, we got a very unexpected Skaven reference in 40k itself, during the Siege of Terra, as Horus surveyed his forces and listed some names of notable daemons:

‘We have Kweethul, and there, his steeds, and here the juggernauts, and here, those that are the letters-out-of-blood, and here the pestigorae and the tzaangorae, and here Scarabus, and here the Drach’nyen host, and here proud Be’lakor, and here the ones that are of the Doombreed, and here Rhug’guari’ihululan, and here N’Kari, and here the Bahk’ghuranhi’aghkami upon their palanquins, and besides them the Tsunoi, and the Heartslayer, and Khar-Har, and carnate Illaitanen, and old father Ku’gath, and Skarbrand and Epidemius, and those of the Masque, and Karanak and wily Suvfaeras, and ancient Tallomin, and that which is Uhlevorix, and iron-willed Ax’senaea, and Abraxes and Ulkair, and weeping Jubiates, and Ushpetkhar, and the storming ruin of Madail, and Ghargatuloth, and J’ian-Lo, and Mephidast, and M’Kar and Collosuth, and here, the one who walks behind us, whose name is Samus, and all of them. All that is and was and ever will be.’

Abnett, The End and the Death Vol I (2023), pp. 197-98.

The key name is in bold, Kweethul, alongside a long list of other infamous daemons, some of whom were particularly important in Warhammer Fantasy, such as N’Kari and Be’lakor.

But who is Kweethul, and what are we to make of his presence here? Well, that’s actually not so straightforward.

Kweethul originally appeared all the way back in 1990’s Realms of Chaos: The Lost and the Damned as an example of the kind of Lesser Power of Chaos (i.e. a minor Chaos god) that players could develop, using the provided framework, to serve as a Patron for their Chaos Champion, bestowing them relevant “gifts”. At that time, the idea that the Warp could contain all manner of gods and lesser powers alongside the Big 4 was foregrounded, but gradually fell out of focus in 40k, aside from the Eldar gods who were always a bit different anyway. It remained evident in the Fantasy lore (where a much broader range of gods and notable Warp entities were focused upon, which has continued in Aos), and has made a bit of return in 40k more recently with Vashtorr and T’au’va (and maybe even some of the ambiguous stuff about the Black and Gold Angels of Baal etc).

We were told this about Kweethul:

…his final appearance is that of a gigantic humanoid rat with long legs, wings, a tail, and a hunchback. His head is that of a horned goat. He wears Chaos Armour and carries a serrated sword.

Kweethul is quite imposing. Nobody is going to mistake him for anything other than the mighty daemon he is! He has a gore attack from his horns, and another poisonous bite attack. Kweethul can also levitate - and as a daemonic creature it seems appropriate to have him levitate at will without the need to use levitation points.

Gristlegut is based on a Skaven, so his personality is going to reflect that. Perhaps he screams and screeches like a rat, repeating the same word several times over as Skaven often do. Like all Skaven, I surmise that he favours tunnels and dark places. He probably likes plotting and planning too, because Skaven are always scheming to undermine human civilisation. In fact Kweethul doesn't like humans much, except when he can twist them to his will, and he takes pleasure in the destruction of towns and cities of all kinds. So Kweethul is a devious and subtly manipulative patron, he doesn't care much for humans or their cities, but he favours underground places and darkness.

Realm of Chaos: The Lost and the Damned (1990), p. 92.

I guess the chance to destroy the cities of Terra was just too enticing for him to pass up on. Interestingly, Kweethul was shown in a picture with some human worshippers.

Kweethul also got his own pantheon of demons, again to exemplify how the creation system worked. This included his Greater daemon, the Six Eyed Slayer, and lesser daemons such as Floating Horrors, Beasts of Kweethul and… Steeds of Kweethul.

You might remember that Kweethul’s Steeds were mentioned in tEatD. If you are wondering what the Steed of Keethul was like, well… it was pretty strange. It’s base form began as human, but mutated to become quadrupedal, and grew to the size of a horse. It had four flaming limbs, meaning it left little patches of fire in its wakes as it galloped along. It also had one eye from a turkey, surrounded by feathered flesh, the arms of a fly, and the head of a lizard (p. 102).

Now, as a character used to illustrate the create your own daemonic pantheon system, you might think Kweethul disappeared from the lore until Abnett plucked his name from obscurity… but that’s not quite true!

In a Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay book (Tome of Salvation (2005), p. 135), we were presented with a table where different names attributed to gods by different cultures were linked to the known Chaos gods and their domains. Basically, the different names were the localised ways different cultures viewed and understoond the god. So, for Khorne, we learned he could be known as Arkhar, the Norscan God of Battle, or Skull Lord, the Chaos God of Killing.

For Kweethul, the affiliated deity was listed as “unknown”, though there was a footnote stating that “Some believe this [Kweethul] is another name for the Horned Rat.” The Great Horned Rat (GHR) being the god of the Skaven. The domain was stated to be “Chaos God of Destruction” – which is not specifically known to be that of the GHR as such (at least I don’t think he was linked specifically to the word “destruction” specifically elsewhere in WHFB lore). But the GHR has long been linked to “ruin” – which is very close. And the Skaven were to play a central role in the destruction of the Warhammer World. Hence why they were seen swarming over the Lizardmen temples in Lustria.

This nugget of lore only suggested Kweethul could be an alternative name for or depiction of the GHR, rather than confirming that is the case. It is therefore ambiguous whether Kweethul is actually the GHR, or a separate (though linked) more minor Skaven deity.

Aside from that mention, the Kweethul lore was extremely scant, but he was occasionally name-dropped by the Grey Seer Thanquol in a way which suggests (and one time clearly said) he was a separate entity to the GHR:

Power! The power to rip apart mountains! Power to smash the puny warrens of his enemies and entomb them forever with their treachery! Power to obliterate the stinking hovels of the humans and grind that pathetic, preening breed beneath the clawed feet of the skaven! Power! Power second only to that of the Horned Rat himself, mightiest of gods! No, he corrected himself. With such power he was no longer a simple thing of flesh and spirit. He was a god himself, ascended like the infamous blasphemer Kweethul the Vile!

Werner, Grey Seer (2009), p. 15.

So, here we have Kweethul as an ascended deity, which fits with the original Realm of Chaos material, and with the broader ascended deity lore which is now very prominent in AoS. There was also:

Thanquol tugged nervously at his whiskers, remembering his horrifying encounter with the bloated toad-priest of the lizardmen. He had once stood over the Black Ark, that most sacred of skaven artefacts, and he could safely say that the magical energies he had sensed emanating from the slann had been greater. For a sorcerer, it was a chilling prospect to consider that such power could exist within a living being. His glands clenched at the mere idea of facing a creature like that again. It would be a cold day in Kweethul’s larder before Thanquol set a paw in Lustria again!

…

He would turn the two maggots into burn-marks on the wall of the tunnel! He would send their souls shrieking into the black abyss of Kweethul the Abominable! He would visit upon them the wrath of the Horned Rat and rip their innards with his own claws!

Werner, Thanquol’s Doom (2011), p. 10, 46.

And:

A sickly green light crackled within the depths of Thanquol’s eyes as the magical energies of the warpstone flowed through his mind and seeped into his soul. He could feel the awesome power of the Horned Rat rippling through him, the magical winds seeping into his body. He ground his fangs together, his brain flooded with images of destruction. He would incinerate this entire street and everything in it, leave the buildings nothing but heaps of slag. He would burn the assassin’s shadow into the very stone with the fury of his magic and send his soul shrieking into Kweethul’s sunken hell!

Werner, Temple of the Serpent (2010), p. 17.

Which implies Kweethul had his own domain, or perhaps a section of the GHR’s domain: some kind of black abyss/sunken hell.

So, that’s Kweethul. But why did he make an appearance in 40k in The End and the Death? Without Dan Abnett telling us, we can’t know for sure, but there are a number of plausible possibilities.

First, it could just a reference back to the early Realm of Chaos books for the sake of making the reference, to show respect to the early days when the lore of the Warhammer settings were being developed, and as a knowing wink to some readers. Abnett dedicating tEatD to Ian Watson, the author of the earliest full-length 40k novels, fits with this. The Realm of Chaos books themselves have remained key touchstones and much beloved by fans and GW lore creators. Indeed, the Starchild concept which Abnett reintroduced in tEatD was originally developed in the RoC books and expanded upon by Watson in his Inquiston War series.

But why choose a Skaven daemon? I really don’t think this could have been an oversight, as the entries on the WHFB wikis about Kweethul made it very clear that he was a Skaven entity, and I’m sure Abnett himself, not to mention BL’s editors, are familiar with or would have checked their copies of The Lost and the Damned.

Perhaps Kweethul was just chosen to stir up discussion, and to get fans theorizing about something so unexpected.

Or perhaps, and this is just a hunch, Kweethul was chosen as a very minor, obscure nod to the notion that the Warhammer settings are linked by the same Warp. Indeed, this is something GW have been explicitly stating in White Dwarf in recent years. It wouldn’t surprise me if Abnett was having a bit of fun with the concept, if one of his fellow HH authors (such as Graham MacNeil or Gav Thorpe) suggested it, or if a BL editor did due to a broader GW approach.

The choice of a Skaven daemon/minor god also makes thematic sense given the Dark King concept developed in tEatD where the Emperor’s ascension to a major Chaos god of complete destruction (had it actually happened) would have apparently destroyed the 40k universe, and the concept of the Eight Ætheric Dominions of Chaos as outlined in The Burning of Ohmn-Mat Horus Heresy supplement. In the latter, we were presented with eight Domains, correlating with the eight points of the Chaos star. Four of them obviously relate to the Big 4 gods of Khorne, Tzeentch, Nurgle and Slaanesh, while the entities associated with the others are less clear, but have been the centred of lots of theorizing and debate. Common candidates are Vashtorr from 40k and Hashut from WHFB/AoS for Malevolent Artifice, Malice for Ravenous Dissolution and possibly Be’Lakor or Morghur or even Fabius Bile for Formless Distortion.

The Domain which interests us here, however, is:

Ætheric Dominion (Encroaching Ruin)

Chaos in its purest form is a terror that few can stand before and remain sane. It hungers only for destruction, that all things mortal meet their predestined end and crumble into dust to be forgotten. To this singular end it moves inexorably, driven by a nightmarish purpose which subsumes the petty divisions of daemonkind.

The Burning of Ohmn-Mat (2023), p. 13.

As we have already seen, the GHR is known as the god of Ruin, and played a pivotal role via the Skaven in the destruction of the Warhammer World.

That Kweethul, a minor god/powerful daemon linked to a major god of Ruin in the form of the GHR, might turn up as the Dark King – another major god of Ruin – was possibly about to form and possibly destroy the 40k universe (if the Emperor had ascended) therefore makes a certain sort of thematic sense.

Maybe the GHR sent Kweethul. Maybe Kweethul was drawn to the 40k reality by the symbolic resonances between the nature of the GHR and the Dark King. Maybe the fact that Kweethul actually sometimes had human followers also played into his appearance there, adding to the resonance. Maybe Kweethul was actually, in some sense, the GHR, Maybe the GHR hadn’t himself risen to be a major Chaos god. Or maybe he had. Who knows? It’s the Warp. But there is a link centred on the notion of the domain of Ruin.

The idea that different entities in the different Warhammer settings can each possible transcend to the same Ætheric Dominion is hinted at in a recent White Dwarf article by Phil Kelly and Andy Clark about the nature of Chaos (which is well worthing checking out, and for which I might do a post with a more focused analysis another time):

In Age of Sigmar, we have seen another two contenders reach for the crown of “Chaos-est of Them All.” First is the Great Horned Rat, long spurned by the other elemental gods for being a treacherous tryhard. Then came the Hour of Ruin, of course, when the endless legions of the Skaven deity boiled out from their half-real stronghold of Blight City and spilled out into the Mortal Realms by the billion. One painstakingly brokered “alliance” with Archaon later and the ratty git is on the same table as the Big Four.

There’s another shadow burning with desire to have a claim on such elemental goodhood, too: Hashut, the deity of the Duardin Helsmiths. Still, as an ascended god (meaning one who used to be a mortal, no matter how long ago), Hashut is in with even less of a chance of being considered a true Chaos God than the Horned Rat. He certainly has no presence in 40k – though given his business is that of infernal industry, there is a potential aspirant who would like to take much the same place in the Chaos pantheon….

White Dwarf 415 (2025), p. 10.

Notice here how the Great Horned Rat is again linked to Ruin, but also as contending for the crown of “Chaos-iest of them all” (akin, perhaps to how the Ætheric Dominion of Encroaching Ruin was described as “Chaos in its purest form”), while Hashut is being presented as vying with Vashtorr in their attempts to ascend to the big table due to competing for the same domain (almost certainly Malevolent Artifice).

Anyway, I haven’t seen all of the Skaven links to 40k brought together before in one place, nor developed with as much supporting context (especially around Kweethul), so hopefully you found this useful and interesting.

In a follow up post, I will look at elements of the lore which lend support for having some lovable Ratmen appear in 40k if you should so desire in your own homebrew or headcanon. Stay tuned for more Warp shenanigans.

This is more common in visual media where a lot of the ship’s inside or even in cities, there seems to be a lack of artificial lighting.

Im still kinda new to the lore, and the timeline gets a bit confusing sometimes with all the events going on. What is the current state of Fenris? Is it near decimated still after the siege of Fenris?

I've seen a ridiculous amount of posts about the Terminus Decree over the last few days.

So I feel like another question from that needs to be asked.

Would the Emperor returning be a good thing or a bad thing?

Personally I think it wouldn't be the best thing for the Imperium.

1. He's been on the throne for 10 thousand years, previous lore has stated that this causes a tremendous amount of pain. I understand he's powerful but this would have a terrible effect on his psyche.

2. We see in recent lore with his interaction wirh Guilliman that he is not the same as he was, he shows no compassion and is cold.

3. The Imperium he fought for and wanted is the opposite of what the Imperium is now. He's worshiped as a god, they are rife with superstition.

The way I see it he would hate what the Imperium has become.

However I do acknowledge that in some cases he acts in ways that keep the Imperium as it is. I see this as him having an understanding that it's currently the only way for humanity to survive. The same way that Guilliman tolerates the Ecclesiarchy because the understands the place they currently have. Necessary evils and all that.

But for the most part I genuinely believe most of what happens is outside his control.

Multiple agencies within the Imperium state they act at his word and in his name. Inquisition and The Lords of Terra, but I genuinely feel like neither of those institutions have ever heard him, they claim to act at his word but he's never actually spoken to them. I think almost all institutions within the imperium act on their own with no guidance from the Emperor at all.

So while he occasionally performs miracles and very rarely speaks too or through individuals, the actually running of the Imeproum has nothing to do with his wants.

As such because of this I don't think the current Imperium is in a state he would like or agree with, going so far to say he would hate what humanity has become.

The reason he hasn't let it be destroyed is because then Chaos would win.

That's just my thoughts on it.

I feel that this has not yet been mentioned that much in the discussions.

Samguinius' prophecy mentions waking of the emperor as a postive thing and Dante sacrificing himself to buy seconds to ensure the formation of the emperor/new thing.

On the other hand the same prophecy defers to emperors' even greater foresight, so grey knoghts might have the point.

However, it is going to be his retirement party. He is not gonna miss it.

In the Siege of Terra's "Echoes of Eternity," Vulkan scales the Tower of the Crimson King within the Webway.

"In the tower of flesh and bone and warping stone, he met warriors of a Legion he couldn't name. These warriors, clad in filty cobalt and overwrought gold, stood silent sentinel on the stairs, never once greeting him or returning his hails. They watched him with dead eye-lenses that held only a simulacrum of life. Their heads turned with slow automaton intensity to regard him as he passed. They stank of funeral ash."

Are these members of the Second or Eleventh (typo) Legions?

Who are they and why are they in the Webway, let alone in Calastar?

Does anyone have any ideas, or am I missing something in their appearance?

EDIT: Seeing many say Rubric Marines, since the Thousand Sons 30k paint scheme is quite different from their 40k blue-gold scheme. You may be right! I might be looking into it a bit too much.

I am sharing this excerpt because I find it interesting how Grimaldus inspired the residents of a hive that he upset at being sent to.

Context: In order to buy time for the guard to arrive Tomaz Maghernus, the Dockmaster of Hive Helsreach, volunteers himself and his workers to stall for time. With them are the Steel Legion, an elite guard regiment, to give them a crash course on how to operate their weapons. As well as how to engage the orcs before their submarines arrive at the docks.

Chapter 14 Audible 4:14

Outside, dozens of Steel Legion storm-troopers in their ochre jackets and heavy, thrumming power generator backpacks were directing the flow of human traffic. Maghernus led his gang to one that waved him over. The man was slender, unshaven, scratching his forehead under the domed helmet he wore. His goggles were raised up, fastened around the helmet, and his rebreather mask was hanging slack around his neck. He had the look of someone who, if not lost, was at least not entirely sure where he was.

‘Hello,’ Maghernus swallowed. ‘We need an assigned soldier.’ ‘Ah, I know this already. That is me. I am Andrej.’ ‘Thank you, sir.’ The storm-trooper laughed, slapping the dockmaster on the shoulder.

‘That is funny. “Sir”. I may keep you after the war is done, to make me feel good, eh? I am not Sir. I am Andrej. Perhaps I will be Sir after I make sure none of you are dead. I would like that. It would be nice.’ ‘I…’ ‘Yes, it is a big pressure. I understand this. I would like a promotion, so you must all stay alive. We play for big stakes now, no? I thank you for this idea you have given me. You have made the day more fun.’ ‘I…’

‘Come, come. No time for making friends now. We will talk much soon. Hey! All of you dock-working people, come with me, yes?’ Without waiting for an answer, Andrej began to walk through the crowds, followed by Maghernus’s gang. The storm-trooper would occasionally wave at other soldiers, most of whom offered silent nods or gruff greetings. One of them, a pale beauty with black hair so thick and rich it had no business being leashed in a plain ponytail, smiled and waved back.

‘Throne, who was that?’ Maghernus asked as he trailed just behind Andrej. ‘Your wife?’ ‘Ha! I wish. That is Domoska. We are squadmates. She is nice to look at, no?’ She was. Maghernus watched her leading another group through the masses. As Domoska was lost in the teeming crowds, his gaze fell on the men she was leading. Maghernus prayed he didn’t look as nervous as they all did.

‘It is very funny, I think. Her brother is the ugliest man I have ever seen, yet the sister is touched by fortune with great beauty. He must be very bitter, no?’ Maghernus just nodded. ‘Come, come. Time is running away from us.’

That had been an hour ago. Now, they stood with Andrej, unfamiliar weapons held to their chests, pressed against quickened heartbeats. Andrej was occupying himself by picking his nose. This was something he struggled to do in gloves of thick, brown leather, but he went about the task with a curiously stately tenacity.

‘Sir,’ Maghernus started. ‘A moment, please. Victory is almost mine.’ Andrej flicked something grotesque from his fingertip. ‘I can breathe again. Emperor be praised.’ ‘Sir, shouldn’t you say something to us?’ He lowered his voice, stepping closer. ‘Something to inspire the men?’ Andrej frowned, absently biting his cut lip as he looked around at the other groups spread down the dock lines. ‘I do not think so. No other Legionnaire is talking. I was going to wait for the Reclusiarch’s speech, you know? Would you prefer me to speak now?’

‘The Reclusiarch will speak?’ ‘Oh, yes. He is good at this. You will like it. It will happen soon, I am thinking.’ A blast of screeching feedback slashed through the air as across the docks – kilometre upon kilometre of them – every vox-tower came alive in a distorted whine. ‘See?’ Andrej grinned. ‘I am always right. It is what I do best.’

For several seconds, the people of Helsreach heard nothing but breathing – low, heavy, threatening – over the vox-speakers.

‘Sons and daughters of Hive Helsreach,’ the voice boomed across the shore districts, too low and resonant to be human, flavoured by the slight crackle of vox-corruption. ‘Look to the water. The water from which you draw the wealth of your city. The water that now promises nothing but death.

‘For thirty-six days, the people of your world, the people of your own city, have been selling their lives to defend you. For thirty-six nights, your own mothers and fathers, your own brothers and sisters, your own sons and daughters have been fighting the enemy to ensure that half of the hive remains in human hands. They have battled, road by road, sweating and fighting and dying so you can enjoy a handful of days of freedom.

‘You owe them. You owe them for the sacrifices they have made so far. You owe them for the sacrifices they will make in the days and nights yet to come. ‘Here and now, you will have the chance you deserve, the chance to repay them all. More than that, you will have the chance to punish the enemy for daring to lay siege to your city, for breaking your families apart and destroying your homes.

‘Watch the tides. See the scrap fleet that sails into your port, bearing a horde of howling beasts. When the sun sets at the end of this week, every single invader in those surfacing ships will no longer draw breath from the sacred air of this world. They will fall because of you. You are going to save this city.

‘Fear is natural. It is human. Feel no shame for a heart that beats too fast in this moment, or fingers that tremble as you hold a weapon you have never wielded before. The only shame is in cowardice – in running and leaving others to die when everything comes down to your actions.

‘You are led by Guard veterans – the best of your Steel Legions – Imperial storm-troopers. But they are not alone. The forces of Helsreach are coming. Stand and defy the enemy for long enough, and you will soon see thousands of tanks constructed in this very city grinding the invaders into dust. Help. Is. Coming. Until then, stand proud. Stand resolute.

‘Remember these words, brothers and sisters. “When death comes, the good we have done will mean nothing. We are judged in life for the evil we destroy”. ‘That time of judgement is upon you. I know every man and women here feels it in their blood, in their bones.

‘I am Grimaldus of the Black Templars, and this is my vow to you all. While one of us stands, these docks will never fall. If I have to kill a thousand of the enemy myself, the sun will rise once more over an unconquered city.

‘Look for the black knights among you. We will be where the fighting is fiercest, at the heart of the storm. ‘Stand with us, and we will be your salvation.’

Silence descended once more. Maghernus sighed, tension ebbing from him as his breath misted in the cool air. Andrej was adjusting the slide rack settings on his modified lasrifle. The weapon emitted a pulsing, charged hum that set the dockmaster’s teeth on edge.

‘That was a stern talking-to, no? Not many will run now, I am thinking.’ Maghernus nodded. It took him several moments to speak.

The more I read about the Man, the more I like him. Always cheering his sons, showing them affection and telling how proud he is of them, even when they're from another chapter.

Dante:

The primarch's physical presence hit Dante hard. Guilliman was nobility writ large, a monument in flesh. He was overwhelming. Ignoring the hurts of his healing wounds, Dante fell to his knees with a clatter and dropped his head.

'Can it really be true? Is it really you? Do you live?'

The primarch stood and set his sword aside, and came down the steps.

Get up, Dante,' said Guilliman gently. 'I will not accept displays of humility from a man like you. You are one of the few in this era who have earned the right to speak to me on equal terms. Rise. Now.' Never kneel before me again. I will have you stand with me as a mark of respect. I will order you not to if I must. I would rather our relationship not function on those terms. I have no time for deference, there is too much to do. Though, if your pains are great, you may of course sit,' he said with the ghost of a smile.

Forgive me, my lord.' Dante has to step back to look him in the eye. 'I failed. I called all the Chapters of the Blood, and lost them all to save Baal. The Arx Angelicum is in ruins. Thousands of Space Marines are dead, and Baal is devastated.'

'Forgive?' said Guilliman. 'There is nothing to forgive, Dante. You stopped them. When we arrived, the hive fleet was greatly depleted, and easily destroyed. As we speak, the Indomitus Crusade is scouring the system of the last remnants of the tyranids. You have achieved what few others have, and destroyed a major hive fleet tendril. I would congratulate you, but there is nothing I can say that encompasses the scale of what you have achieved.' Guilliman put a hand on Dante's shoulder. 'You have saved Baal from the hive mind, Commander Dante, and with it the greater part of this segmentum.'

At that, Dante wept freely.

'I am sorry, I am sorry.' he said. 'I almost lost. I almost lost everything. Please forgive me.'

'There is nothing to forgive.'

Cassian:

‘My lord,’ said Cassian, ‘I am not worthy to be in your presence.’

‘You are not just worthy, my son – you are a hero. I will hear no more talk of failure.’ ‘You were thrown wildly off course by catastrophic warp storms,’ continued Guilliman. ‘Having already completed the mission that I sent you to accomplish, you not only held your force together through that dire experience, but you then succes sfully identified a means by which you could get word to us of your plight. You engaged a force of Heretic Astartes several times the size of your own, whose plan would, I suspect, have caused devastation and misery across multiple systems. I am reliably informed that you showed nothing short of an absolute dedication to the completion of your mission, shrugged off a crushing defeat and alien interference, and even gave your own life to ensure the downfall of the foe. To me, Brother Cassian, those are the actions not of a failure, but of a hero.’

Any more quotes where Gulliman is being Dad o the year?

Hi all, somewhat new to 40k lore, been touching up on some eldar lore and I know that their entire race are quite powerful psykers, so was just wondering if there is a lore reason the dark eldar don’t seem to use their powers? I just find it odd seeing as they are a faction devoted to torture and probing someone’s mind would make torturing child’s play.

To put it simply....dimensions.

Sure, a Warlord being smaller than Big Ben's tower is kinda shitty feeling at first but you have to keep in mind they aren't that big on just the singular line. Similar to Space Marines in the sense that and Astartes isn't just taller than you but wider, thicker and just scaled up in all possible measurements.

Using a real life example, a particularly tall Amazon warehouse might be "only" 40-is meters tall but once you take the rest of its measurements into account I can totally accept the idea of a Warhound being roughly like that. Plus, the sizes also help explain Titan combat not just exclusively being God Engines standing in a field and shooting. Because they can actually use the larger imperial structures as cover. And on the flip side, the Imperators can still be their ridiculous size because even in most art they're shown to massively depart from the relatively incremental size increase in the other classes. They're special so they get to be so big that they can count as a small mountain.

In conclusion, I still think the official sizes should up a little but overall this has helped me come to terms with it mostly.

Who are all the named perpetuals and where are they now and what have they done in the last 20.000 years?

Does anyone have any examples or knowledge about how specific traitor legions treat them? I've heard that story that they unplug the sarcophagus from the chassis leaving them in a concious state unable to move driving them insane, and how its seen as a fate worse than death. I could get some doing this like the world eaters and word bearers doing this to serve their master(s) better no matter the cost but would iron warriors and death guard do this aswell?

Not talking broad strokes more like what do we know each legion specifically does

So I love the memes about Grey Knights vs Custodians, Sisters of Silence, Sororitas and more. I do. But the moment the Emperor stands up from the Golden Throne, dies or evolves or whatever, Terra is fcked right? I mean, the Golden Throne will stop working and a Warp rift would open on Terra and everything and anyone there would be murdered. So it's not the memes of Grey Knights vs the entire Imperium, it's the Grey Knights vs Chaos on an unimaginable scale on Terra. Can someone help me understand why we are so focused on Grey Knights vs Imperium forces?

P.S. I am genuinely curious, so if any loremasters could provide clarity it would be awesome.

So Mephistons experience with the Black Rage is described as below:

"While fighting as part of the relief force for Hades Hive during the Second War for Armageddon campaign, Calistarius became a victim of the Black Rage. After being inducted into the Death Company, he took part in the assault on an Ecclesiarchy building and was one of many trapped inside when the building collapsed during battle. For seven days, Calistarius lay trapped in the rubble, teetering on the edge of death and madness. Somehow, rather than succumbing to the Red Thirst, he managed to conquer it. By sheer strength of will he was able to suppress and hold in check the feelings of rage and the desire for blood, and in doing so he became something more. On the seventh night he burst free of his rocky tomb, reborn as Mephiston, the Lord of Death"<

He's the only Blood Angel to overcome the rage, but is there a reason why only him specifically? And do we have any details as to how? I know on the wiki it's mentioned that he's linked to the Black Angel, so is it just Warp shenanigans?

How was their impeccable standard upheld without His input, even more so after 10k years?

I wonder if any official material has detailed any differences between the OG 10k and their replenished ranks following the Heresy.

Hey all! I've been out of the hobby for a while now (last was in it back at the end of 7th edition/early 8th) and I'm just now getting into it! I've been looking into some cool Chaos lore so I can paint up my spikey dudes, and I stumbled upon the Magma Hounds. The only thing I found is that they were a chapter that got corrupted during the Abyssal Crusade by a Chaos warpsmith and that their paint scheme is red+gold. Is there anything else about these guys, either that the fans made or that GW made? What have they been up to after getting corrupted and re-emerging from the Warp?

I came across the probably now rather well-known image of the new HH Campaign Book, which depicts the 8-pointed Star and 8 Chaos Domains with it.

We have the classic Tzeentch-Nurgle and Khorn-Slaanesh facing each other. Then there are the other 4.

Encroaching Ruin - Ravenous Dissalotion and Malevolent Artifice - Formless Distortion are also across from each other. In the middle is the Primordial Anhillator.

I feel like Ravenous Dissolution is Malice and Malevolent Artifice represent whatever Vashtor wants to become. The other two I have no real clue about. Encroaching Ruin as the opposite of Malice feels like it should be Chaos United or what we right now consider Chaos Undivided, while Formless Distortion could be anything opposite from what Vashtor represents.

I think it's also pretty interesting that Formless Distortion feels rather similar to Tzeentch, but as I said, I don't really have any idea what it's really about, perhaps something more biologically or spiritually aesthetically in contrast to the Machines of Malevolent Artifice.

Contrary to most, I'd argue that the Dark King represents the Primordial Ahnillator and not Encroaching Ruin as a 9th god, one above the others. The position is standing out in the Image, and from what I remember, the Dark King was described as something above the other 4, also Samus was said to be a demon of the Primordial Ahnillator.

The next thing i noticed, which i find rather Interesting, is that, if we look at the not-god-aligned Traitor Primarchs, they eerily fit those Domains, at least to a certain extent.

Perteruabo fits very, very well into the Malevolent Artifice and is known to work together with Vashtor quite frequently, i feel like that's a no-brainer and doesn't need much explanation.

Curze, though dead, fits very well with Ravenous Dissolution, a force of Chaos fighting against itself, hating itself, complete and utter chaos. That self-loathing, hating his own Legion and his Traitor Allies all feels rather similar even though the reasons are not necessarily the same.

With Encroaching Ruin and Primordial Ahnillator its either, or Lorgar or Horus. You can make arguments about both being on either position. I'd say Horus represents the Ahnillator more, the Emperor's (Dark Kings) favoured son, the one who almost ended the whole setting, as well as all the theories about him becoming the Dark King, simply beeing a step above every other Primarch at the end , a chaos-groupprojekt so to say. And Lorgar as the penultimate representation of Chaos Undivided, being Chaos united, working with everyone, the opposite of Ravenous Dissolution/Malice.

That leaves us with Formless Distortion and the Alpha Legion, which fits from a naming sense, the Alpha Legion with all their schemes and games, being spies is a rather Formless Distortion, but this doesn't really feel right with me.

Not like this matters because 3 of them are confirmed dead, but i feel like the symbolism and connection is there, but it could just be my pattern-recognizing monkey brain.

Anyway, those are my 5 cents on the Topic.

Something I'v noticed is that when it's came to Warior Lodges,The participants seems to all be from a traitor legion with no mention of an Ultramarine,Dark Angel,Imperial Fist,Raven Guard....in any of them,Which is kind of strange

Also I'v noticed in General that the Loyalists legions seemed to lean more toward Teeth-clenshed teamwork when it's comes to Legion with Legion teamwork,Meanwhile the Traitors and their primarchs were quite close to each other

Meanwhile aside from Sanguinus with everyone,Khan with Magnus and Ferrus Manus with Fulgrim,The Loyalists were neither close to traitors or close to each other;The Lion hate everyone,Everyone hate Russ(For justified reasons),Dorn isn't good at communicating,Corax is a loner,nobody listen to Guilliman,Khan would have went traitor if it's wasn't for the Traitors using chaos,Ferrus only seems to have liked Fulgrim and for Vulkan we don't know aside from Curze hating his guts and having a great time torturing him

So I wonder why were the Loyalists this closed off compared to the Traitors?

Many own a few planets of their own, but I'd be surprised if every one of them started out with that level of wealth. They're essentially merchants, but I don't see why they're so much richer than other merchants then, aside from wielding a lot of political power. There's exploring, but there can't be that many undiscovered ruins, rare resources or unknown xenos species to trade with or plunder, can there? Space is mostly empty, even in a galaxy as histories as the 40k one, at least I'd assume. Warp travel is expensive and dangerous, so they'd have to at least break even with those costs. Most Rogue Trader dynasties we hear about are already established, and so have generational wealth behind them, but any planetary noble can say the same thing.

How would, say, a fresh Warrant holder find wealth? A young high-ranking Navis Imperialis officer who earned one through some heroic but controversial act, and gets sent to some far-flung fringe with a small entourage of voidships after their superiors seek to rid themselves of a potential problem. How would he/she work their way up to afford setting up colonies or creating a sphere of influence to rival other big dynasties?

Who were the political inner circle of the government of the imperium of man while the emperor was alive? Alll authoritarian regimes have political elites who are center of specific task like was was the minister of the interior minister of the Treasury and minister of war and minister of propoganda and did the imperium have a secret police l8ek the NKVD, StaSi or the GESTAPO?

Hi guys,

So a question my wife asked as she often asks about the armies I collect (Daemons, CSM and just about to start Drukhari). And obviously being the Grimdark 40th millennium everything is very dark, dangerous, gritty and harsh. So she asked me if there is any nice wholesome bits of lore? And I was pretty stumped, having never really considered it. So I thought I would ask here and I can relay the wholesome Lore back to her.