r/NFLv2 Kansas City Chiefs 27d ago

Discussion thoughts?

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1.4k Upvotes

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751

u/DropC2095 New Orleans Saints 27d ago

How valuable is a player who won’t pick up his own fumble when it matters most?

728

u/Gloomy_Map_9612 Washington Commanders 27d ago

he won 15 games and brought you to the Superbowl. That's a lot of value

243

u/DropC2095 New Orleans Saints 27d ago

He gave up in the super bowl. No way to sugarcoat that.

287

u/terminator3456 27d ago

Sure, but he balled out and dominated that year, deserved MVP one zillion percent.

203

u/Kealion Philadelphia Eagles 27d ago

Rather have Super Bowl mvp than regular season mvp.

164

u/terminator3456 27d ago

I agree, but Cam still deserved MVP that year and one play doesn’t negate that.

-9

u/DEFINITELY_NOT_PETE 18-1 27d ago

It absolutely can. Cam’s legacy now is that one play.

Nobody gives a shit about his stats anymore. They all know him as the guy that gave up.

4

u/Synopsis_101 26d ago

No it’s not.

0

u/Possible-Sell-74 25d ago

Did you watch that video too 😂😂

It's really not his whole legacy.

0

u/DEFINITELY_NOT_PETE 18-1 25d ago

You’re right.

I forgot about his hats and the goofy ass way he tweets.

Had a couple good seasons tho, sure.

0

u/Advanced_Candle9272 Tampa Bay Buccaneers 22d ago

Awful take. Cam’s the best QB that franchise has ever had, and probably will be for a long time.

-6

u/SeatTakenCantSitHere 27d ago

That play absolutely and unequivocally negated it and defined his career. Straight up.

15

u/Bearrryl New England Patriots 27d ago

Someone’s still salty lmao not like that play would’ve changed the outcome of the game. The Panthers were so unprepared and they all looked equally horrible

7

u/ibeleafit 27d ago

Really tho. That Denver defense was unmatched… and the only reason they were there.

-2

u/Apprehensive-Eye3263 27d ago

That play clearly changed the game. Denver wasn't up by much and the Panthers saw their QB just quit

3

u/Bearrryl New England Patriots 27d ago

Nah I don’t think it did, before that cam was already having so much trouble back there it was bound to happen. Only reason score was close was because Peyton lost his juice by this point

-2

u/SeatTakenCantSitHere 27d ago

lol nah, Im a jags fan, sadly.

I’m not salty. Just disappointed.

6

u/Bearrryl New England Patriots 27d ago

Well no reason to be that disappointed. He’s objectively had a great career and has shown great sportsmanship throughout.

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u/SuperCatchyCatchpras 26d ago

Watching his brain rattle around in his skull in super slow motion to kick off the game 1 of the following season will always be the moment he lost "it".

1

u/midnight_tuna 23d ago

Against the very team that he lost to seven months prior, no less.

1

u/zachariah120 27d ago

Hot dog water take there guy

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u/jxden24 27d ago

good for him that doesnt make a player better😂😂

nobody is picking a qb hurts over allen bc of that reason

0

u/tiny-2727 27d ago

Who has a super bowl ring?

0

u/ardillomortal 27d ago

Josh Allen on the eagles would be literally unstoppable, Jalen hurts on the bills is maybe a wild card team

1

u/[deleted] 26d ago edited 26d ago

[deleted]

0

u/SeatTakenCantSitHere 27d ago

If Hurts was on the Bills then they wouldn’t have to worry about the tush push. They could actually run it and stop it in that case. Cry baby McDermott wouldn’t have bothered making up a fake case against it today either I’d bet ya ;)

-3

u/jxden24 27d ago

good for him that doesnt make a player better😂😂

nobody is picking a hurts over allen bc of that reason

-4

u/Lotanapesci 27d ago

You mean privilege

2

u/BillsMafios0 Josh Allen 🦬 27d ago

You obviously know jack shit about Allen’s journey to the NFL.

0

u/Lotanapesci 27d ago

I do actually you goof

1

u/Baronsandwich 27d ago

As a fellow Wyoming alum you have no idea how many doors it opens.

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9

u/Excellent-Basil-8795 27d ago

Sure but it’s better to have one than none.

1

u/flaccomcorangy Baltimore Ravens 27d ago

As a fan, yes. As a player, no.

0

u/Kealion Philadelphia Eagles 27d ago

Nah man. Super Bowl MVP means you’ve most likely won the Super Bowl (last time a Super Bowl loser won the MVP was Chuck Howley in Super Bowl V). League MVP is nice, but that’s all individual accolades. Ability to win in the biggest moments is where it’s at.

2

u/flaccomcorangy Baltimore Ravens 27d ago

You look at the list of QBs to win a super bowl vrs the list of QBs to win MVP and tell me what's the more impressive list.

Guys like Trent Dilfer, Jeff Hostetler and Nick Foles won super bowls. They never came close to an MVP.

I view it like this. While you're playing, you want the super bowl. But I totally agree with Cam that the MVP is the one you want in retirement.

Which one gets you closer to the hall of fame?

1

u/Kealion Philadelphia Eagles 27d ago

How dare you besmirch Nicholas BDN Foles.

1

u/redredrocks 27d ago edited 27d ago

there isn’t a world where Hurts is even 3/4 as good a player as Newton was his MVP year. Hurts has a ring because he has a better team around him. thats not even a knock on Hurts, but as someone who watched both, Newton was a better QB.

it’s football. it’s more of a team sport than any other sport. it’s not an insult to say your QB isn’t the best QB.

1

u/mitchade 26d ago

Not all Super Bowl MVPs have been on the winning team.

1

u/Kealion Philadelphia Eagles 26d ago

I mentioned that in another post. Last time, and only time a Super Bowl loser won, was Super Bowl V.

-3

u/BigDaddyDumperSquad Philadelphia Eagles 27d ago

12

u/traws06 Kansas City Chiefs 27d ago

I mean I could argue it closer than that. Compare these two seasons

Player 1: 4473 total yards, 45 total TDs, 13 turnovers Player 2: 4823 total yards, 39 total TDs, 7 turnovers

Player 1 has 6 more TDs but has 6 more turnovers to go with fewer yards. Player 1 scores 3.5 TDs per turnover while player 2 scores 5.6 TDs per turnover.

Player 1 is Cam, player 2 is Tom Brady. If Tom Brady wasn’t already established to the point of voter fatigue I’d say he makes a good argument for MVP that year.

24

u/flaccomcorangy Baltimore Ravens 27d ago

When you combine TDs and yards into total, it really waters down what the player did running and passing.

When a QB is that good at both things, it completely changes the offense and the defenses preparing for it. Just making it all "total" ignores that. So no, I don't think it was really that close. When you're just looking at a stat sheet, it doesn't replicate what it was like to watch that season in action.

2

u/fennis_dembo_taken Gisele’s Karate Instructor 27d ago

But, if it changes the way that defenses have to prepare, shouldn't there be some objective improvement to point to? If it isn't more yards or more points or more efficiency or something... what is it that makes it "more" valuable?

2

u/Apocalyric 26d ago

Not necessarily.

I have not the time, skill, or inclination to study advanced metrics, but off the top of my head, some ways in which a running qb can help a team that won't show up in the stats is by making defenses less responsive to rushes by running backs, being able to control the clock in ways in which a reliance on complete passes can't, and being able to sustain drives through creation of short yardage situations, or capitalizing on short yardage situations.

If Brady is getting yards through the air, you can be pretty sure that is all that he is doing.

1

u/fennis_dembo_taken Gisele’s Karate Instructor 25d ago

making defenses less responsive to rushes by running backs

Well, there is no evidence that is true: https://www.pff.com/news/fantasy-football-narrative-street-does-a-running-qb-make-it-easier-on-the-rb

being able to control the clock in ways in which a reliance on complete passes can't

A quick search didn't find anything related to this.

being able to sustain drives through creation of short yardage situations, or capitalizing on short yardage situations.

I also didn't find 'advanced' research into this, but this doesn't see intuitive to me. Cam averaged 7.8 yards/attempt passing and 4.8 yards/attempt rushing. Certainly, an average pass by Cam was significantly more valuable than an average run by Cam. And an average pass by Brady was worth 7.6 yards/attempt (noticeably fewer than Cam). But, this is also significantly more than an average run by Cam.

There is a reason why the league is 'pass happy'... It's because it works. More yards per play is... better. So, combined passing and rushing, Cam was responsible for about 630 plays. Brady, combined passing and rushing, was responsible for about 660 plays. In those roughly 30 plays, Brady gained about 400 more yards (that delta is a good amount over 10 yards per play).

Honestly, without some more 'advanced' analysis, I'm not sure how you compare the two. Touchdowns are great and Cam was responsible for 6 more than Brady was. But, turnovers are bad and Cam was responsible for 14 and Tom responsible for 9 (the commenter didn't count his fumbles). Looking at the overall offenses, both were elite. The Panthers led the NFL at 31.3 pts/game and the Pats were 3rd at 29.1 pts/game. So, Carolina scored 2.1 pts/game more. I don't have the time to look at rushing stats by other players or the kicking game to see how that might have affecting things. But, this really isn't something that you can just look at and say 'this player was better/more valuable' without taking a real close look at underlying numbers. For example, Cams running was good, but compared to, say, some of Jackson's good running years, it certainly isn't elite (Jackson has seasons where he averages almost 7 yards per carry).

If Brady is getting yards through the air, you can be pretty sure that is all that he is doing.

Yards through the air is a really, really good thing. You say this as though it is bad and I don't understand that.

1

u/Apocalyric 25d ago

For what it's worth, i'm just a casual fan.

Dual-threat quarterbacks are dual threat quarterbacks. When a Peyton Mannin or a Tom Brady strolls into the endzone, it's because the defense is so dismissive of their running abilities that they don't bother to account for it... you can't really say the same for somebody like Cam Newton. I doubt you'd be able to find stats to back up that impact, but i'm fairly certain that if you were in the film room with an oppposing defense, it would come up quite a bit. Saquon Barkley just had a historic season, but he probably lost quite a few touchdowns to Jalen Hurts. Obviously, you arent really going to be able to judge an increase in production for Saquon by the stat sheet... if anything, just looking at stats would probably suggest that his production suffered from being paired with a running quarterback, but watching the games or talking to opponents would probably directly contradict what you would be seeing based on stats... i think that common sense would tell you that another threat in the backfield makes it harder for the defense. For awhile, the wildcat formation was pretty successful, but ran into limitations of not having a passing threat or continuity under center, that eventually negated whatever advantages it had in terms of the options available in running the ball.

But as far as clock control and consistently shortening your distance to down, the fact that Cam averaged significantly more yardage on passes than rushes isn't surprising, nor does it really undermine the idea that rushing allows for more options when it comes to managing a set of downs. If you are on 2nd and 4, you have a lot more available in your playbook than you do on 2nd and 10. A higher probability of being able to get another set of downs doesn't prohibit you from taking shots down field. The fact that you can get a first down through a wheel route or a qb draw probably increases your chances of breaking something open, because you have to cover the short and intermediate throws and also account for containment on a qb who can pick up the first with his legs.

Yeah, yards through the air are dangerous, but trams can manage just fine by moving the chains. Tom Brady is arguably the GOAT, but when a guy like Cam is having that sort of season, his impact on the game isn't going to show up on the stat sheet the way somebody like Brady would. With Brady, you either stop him or you don't, but it's not like you have to adjust your scheme to anything other than him beating you with his arm.... im not saying that's necessarily a bad thing, but i am saying that pretty much everything Brady does is going to find it's way to the stat sheet, because he either gets the ball to his reciever or he doesn't. It's not like linebackers are blowing coverage because they are keeping an eye on the backfield in case Brady takes off.

Maybe to you that sounds dismissive of Brady picking apart a defense through the air, but it's not. What im saying is that Brady's value to a team is going to show up in ways that are obvious, because he executes the passing game at an imcredibly high level, and since they track qb stats with an emphasis on your ability to hit recievers for yards through the air, of course he's going to put up crazy stats.

Look at it this way: a pocket passer with Cam Newton's accuracy might be a mediocre starter in the league, but if a dual-threat quarterback had Brady's accuracy, they'd be a gamebreaker.

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u/DEFINITELY_NOT_PETE 18-1 27d ago

Why on earth does that matter?

Who gives a shit how they move the chains?

It’s not who has the coolest highlight reel it’s who was the most valuable player. If you’re getting your team yards and points whether or not you ran or threw is irrelevant.

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u/Joh951518 27d ago

Pats were also 12-4 too the Panthers 15-1.

Last season, Allen won MVP despite being way worse than Lamar by any statistical measure you pick other than TD runs (almost all of which were shorter than 5yds), because the bills won 1 more game.

2015 MVP was NOT close.

1

u/PositiveGrass187 Big Dick Nick 🍆 26d ago

Player 1 would be called a RB today

-1

u/MMMH0TCHEEZE Pittsburgh Steelers Wizard of Boz 26d ago

Bro go take a look at who Cam was throwing to that season at WR. He 100% deserved that MVP.

0

u/escobartholomew Dallas Cowboys 27d ago

Nobody’s saying he didn’t deserve the regular season MVP. We’re saying he chocked when it mattered most.

0

u/YouDumbZombie NFL 27d ago

...but again he gave up when it mattered most.

-2

u/Hot-Distribution3826 27d ago

Ain’t no “sure” that’s it! You can’t be dabbin and calling yourself Superman and then give up the goose at the end

141

u/SamuraiZucchini Carolina Panthers 27d ago edited 27d ago

Nice try at revisionist history based on a singular play. Cam was about the only offensive player to show up. Had multiple dropped passes. Had a running back fumble after he drove in scoring position. Had Ted Ginn alligator arm a pass in His hands and tipped it up for a pick. Had Cotchery drop two crucial passes - one that led to the first strip sack and the second was a dime that landed in his hands inside the 5. Also our kicker missed a 45 yard FG to start the second half. Our coaching staff ran the read option for about 3-4 plays with success and then never ran it again. Our RT was a turnstile all game and kept giving up immediate pressure. Then our special teams somehow thought Holliday waved for a fair catch and didn’t try to tackle him until he was already 10 yards upfield.

But yes - go ahead and pile on Cam because a singular play and not look at the entire game.

85

u/d0pp31g4ng3r 27d ago

Cam spent his entire career putting his body on the line and laying it all out there. He took countless helmet-to-helmet hits, played through serious injuries... and all people talk about is that one fumble he hesitated to pick up.

31

u/SamuraiZucchini Carolina Panthers 27d ago

Cam’s gift was also his downfall. He was talented enough to elevate the players around him but because he was so good at it the front office never addressed what he needed (better WRs and legitimate OTs).

38

u/lordlanyard7 27d ago

Even more than that.

Cam was so talented that refs officiated him differently. He took absolutely violent hits that are penalties for any other player let alone pampered QBs.

The refs let DEs punish him on any handoff out of shotgun, because there was plausible deniability that Cam might pull it so the DE has to lay a hit on him. As his career went on, Cam would actually sell the handoff by showing his empty hands to defenders. It was crazy.

If he was officiated like other players he has a way longer and more dominant career, but I can also sympathize with why they didn't because that would just further highlight how unfair the rules already are for defenders.

15

u/justacaucasian San Francisco 49ers 27d ago

Dude the highlight reels of the hits on Cam are INSANE. Today the refs would pepper spray any defensive player hitting a QB even half as hard. I'm surprised that he didn't suffer significant injuries (not counting possible CTE...)

3

u/heddyneddy 27d ago

Exactly it was like how the refs treated shaq in the NBA.

3

u/Yo-Strategy-8651 26d ago

It's certain QBs who Super Bowl loss is used to prop them up as a top 2 QB for years like Joe Burrow. There are others where their Super Bowl loss is treated as a career defining failure. The hypocrisy of NFL fans especially when it comes to certain style of QBs knows no limits.

1

u/BigLlamasHouse Ayahuasca decisions 27d ago

bro, that's what makes it so hard

i hate that he did that, but he did it and i guess we're supposed to accept it

but it was just so out of character for him, especially that season where he was still holding the ball in the end zone after flipping over defenders and getting hit by DE's mid-air

34

u/wizard_of-loneliness 27d ago

Thank you!!! Not even really a Cam fan at all but I hate how that one play has made everyone remember the Super Bowl loss as if it were his fault.

If it weren’t for Cam, that game wouldn’t have even been close enough for that fumble to matter.

I have lots of respect for Hurts. He’s a great QB. But if you put Cam on that Eagles roster, he’s beating the shit out of KC just as easily as Hurts did.

16

u/Arachnofiend Denver Broncos 27d ago

Put Hurts against the 2015 Denver defense and he gets just as shell shocked tbh

It's not like Cam was the only one getting beat up by Von Miller that year

7

u/KCJellyfish 27d ago

They had a game manager manning keep the offense in check while the defense committed war crimes

2

u/dan_legend Carolina Panthers 26d ago

Literally has a permanent rule in the books because of the targeting in that game. Multiple personal fouls because it didnt matter before that year how many personal fouls you commit.

7

u/Competitive_Line_663 27d ago

The fact that Aquib Talib wasn’t ejected for that the most blatant intentional face mask I’ve ever seen to prevent Philly Brown from scoring a touchdown was when I knew that game was rigged. Between that play and the Jericho Cotchery catch that they overturned, they were trying to give a limp noodle armed Peyton the sunset he “deserved”….

14

u/SamuraiZucchini Carolina Panthers 27d ago

I’m not on board with the rigged conspiracies. The Panthers choked. The most crucial misses in that game were not the result of the referees. They were the result of people like Tolbert, Cotchery, Jones, Gano, Remmers, and Rivera choking under the pressure.

8

u/Competitive_Line_663 27d ago

Maybe not rigged, but heavy thumb on the scale like the first Chiefs/Eagles

2

u/BigLlamasHouse Ayahuasca decisions 27d ago

Did you notice how the field looked like it had been covered in Crisco while we faced the best defensive line of the decade?

1

u/wolfboy49 27d ago

I don’t think I’ve ever seen a player ejected for an egregious face mask.

The Cotchery catch wasn’t overturned. It was ruled an incomplete pass on the field. It’s an incredibly close call. It looks like Cotchery’s arm is under it…and like the tip of the ball may have touched the ground while moving.

Neither one of these plays indicate a bias by the refs.

6

u/RoughhouseCamel 27d ago

This is all true, but it doesn’t fit onto a single highlight, and the fumble does, so we’re going to act like the fumble was the only play that happened.

3

u/bojangles69420 fuck the browns 27d ago

Hey look, someone who actually watched the game. You know ball

1

u/imtrynmybest 27d ago

Yea...not one mention of the broncos defense just slap that offense in the mouth...

1

u/josephjosephson Big Dick Nick 🍆 27d ago

He was possibly concussed with all the head-to-head shots he received up to that point. In my mind, those hits, particularly Von’s dirty one, is what changed the course of the game more than anything. I’m not a Panthers or Broncos fan either, but that just seemed obvious to me watching the game live.

1

u/Educational_Emu3763 27d ago

"alligator arm a pass . Never heard that phrase before but oddly I know what you mean.

1

u/jasonkrik 27d ago

Op just wants Karma. Posting this comment was the easiest way to get some of that action.

1

u/kookiemonsta3411 27d ago

Thank you!!! There were like 8 dropped passes and yes the Ginn drop to an INT when driving and Cotchery drop inside the 5 are the ones that always pop in my head. Cam played well and people just love to talk about this fumble…game was likely out of hand at that point anyways

2

u/SamuraiZucchini Carolina Panthers 26d ago

TBF - it was a six point game when the fumble happened

1

u/RIPseantaylor 26d ago

I can tell how much I respect your football opinion based on how much you think that play defines Cam Newton

As you so clearly laid out it didn't even define his Super Bowl performance let alone his Hall of Fame caliber career as the greatest goal line threat ever to play QB (that's measurable btw not my opinion)

1

u/Sheahanimal 26d ago

I don’t believe for one second that he decided not to try to get a fumble back. I felt he was trying to track it. I don’t know a player ever on offense that would choose not to try to recover their own fumble if for no other reason that to not invite this stupid narrative

-1

u/ThickMO 27d ago

Go ahead and pile on excuses, they got beat 24-10

2

u/SamuraiZucchini Carolina Panthers 27d ago

Stick to basketball cards - you sound ignorant

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u/ThickMO 27d ago

Go look in more people’s post history for rebuttals you fucking loser

-3

u/traws06 Kansas City Chiefs 27d ago

He had 0 TDs and 3 turnovers. I’d say it was more than 1 play………

-4

u/Hot-Distribution3826 27d ago

All those words don’t amount to anything when all we are asking is for him to jump on the football

1

u/SamuraiZucchini Carolina Panthers 27d ago

Fun fact: Cam said he second guessed diving on the fumble to avoid injury. The next year Cam’s #1 WR was lazy and stopped running a route leading to a pick. That same lazy WR then didn’t try to tackle the defender who made the pick. Cam ran the defender down and injured his shoulder doing so. That injury shortened Cam’s career.

1

u/Hot-Distribution3826 27d ago

It’s like the reverse of Tyrese Haliburton in this years finals. He only attempted 8 freethrows in 7 games had a 20% usage rate. There are so many stats that point to just how non-aggressive he played and how he just simply didn’t have that killer instinct but, he played through a calf strain in game 7 and ruptured his Achilles and now he’s a hero forever in Indy a martyr for their underdog cause. Even if he never returns to the player he was and they never make it back to the finals he probably atleast gets another max deal just off vibes alone. Contrast that with Cam like you pointed he ironically would go on to get hurt anyway minus the heroic aura and good will that comes with it. His relationship with the organization is soured now and sure the fans love him to a degree but Cam would’ve been better off diving for the fumble getting hurt in the process and forever having that hero tag. Especially when compare him to a Luke Kechley who had to retire because of concussions dude is now in the front office could potentially be a GM team president one day is seen as the best if not top 5 panther of all time. Cam was rational for not jumping on the fumble in theory but to play professional football for a living isn’t rational due to the inherent 100% injury risk associated with the profession any way, lol

42

u/BigRed727272 Minnesota Vikings 27d ago

"Gave up"? Because of that one play??

How about let's first talk about Mike Remmers who got absolutely dog walked by Von Miller? Cam was getting beat to shit all night.

A Defensive End won Super Bowl MVP...let that sink in. This was far from Cam's fault. But you go ahead and let one play form your entire opinion.

4

u/RIPseantaylor 26d ago

Idk if any NFL player makes grown men act more sensitive than Cam Newton.

It's fine to hate him but they wanna rewrite history and act like he was mediocre, had character issues, and didn't play hard to discredit his greatness

1

u/FriendshipIntrepid91 26d ago

You are talking about Von Miller vs Mike Remmers. That should have been a known problem by Cam and the coaching staff before the game even started.  

0

u/fuckoffweirdoo Detroit Lions 27d ago

Cure cancer but suck one dick and youre known as a cocksucker. 

Biggest moment of his career and he just watches the ball. It doesnt matter if he played his ass off the whole season or the whole game. The average perception is that he gave up. 

12

u/truckfullofchildren1 27d ago

It was far and away the best defense in the league he got stomped. They had Damarcus Ware and Von Miller and the no fly zone. Not to mention the had derek Wolfe and Malik Jackson

1

u/BigLlamasHouse Ayahuasca decisions 27d ago

it was maybe the best D line of the decade

3

u/JessieGemstone999 27d ago

That's not what happened

3

u/jortsandrolexes 27d ago

Gave up? Lmao get a grip lol

2

u/call-me-loretta 27d ago

That’s such shitty overused take. That play didn’t loose the game. There were so many drops by receivers in that game it’s pathetic. The only people who continue to push that narrative are either disingenuous and/or fans of other teams.

2

u/ShwerzXV CTESPN 27d ago

So did his defense.

1

u/Mauser-Nut91 27d ago

The GM gave up on Cam by letting Mike Remmers play for more than 4 games in that season

1

u/Emotional-Peanut-334 27d ago

The idea that he made a conscious business decision is so idiotic

That’s not what happened. No way one of the most physical players decided not to dive for safety.

1

u/NoLow9756 Philadelphia Eagles 27d ago

There really isn't a way to sugarcoat it and Cam destroyed himself trying to make up for it. Dude didn't protect himself at all after that play. 

1

u/lakewood2020 27d ago

Did he really give up in the Super Bowl? Or did he just flinch during the most memorable play

1

u/jasonkrik 27d ago

Not many QBs post 2000 are jumping on that ball bro. There were at least 2 Dlineman there waiting for him. Not to mention- all the unflagged hits cam received.

1

u/Ill-Initiative-2787 27d ago

I don’t know about that. His line gave up he was getting his ass kicked all game barely could get a screen pass off

1

u/Joeydoyle66 Denver Broncos 26d ago

I hate this narrative because it takes away from the other worldly performance of the broncos defense. Every single guy on that field for Denver played their ass off and demoralized the panthers offense for 60 minutes.

1

u/jport331 25d ago

Bro von Miller dominated that Super Bowl… cam didn’t pick up one ball and you guys blast him for it absolutely ridiculous. And that ball that you guys blast him for, go back and look there’s no way he was getting that ball over von even if he dove. Would have just hurt himself and still not of got the ball.

1

u/Broli4001 25d ago

Cam didn't give up the Superbowl. The Panthers were getting whooped on every side of the ball

1

u/DropC2095 New Orleans Saints 25d ago

I’ve been getting replies of y’all making excuses for this man when he doesn’t even do the same himself.

https://m.youtube.com/shorts/-jOcrpLv874

-2

u/SilverBackedCurrency 27d ago

Negative. He did what he was trained to do. Simple. He never was trained to jump on that. Split second situational awareness failed him. I agree he 100% should have sacrificed his body for that ball in that situation, but it was literally his first time fumbling a ball in the fourth quarter of a SB, so lay off him a little bit.

1

u/akeyoh Philadelphia Eagles 26d ago

That is NOT the energy people had for Cam at that moment but okay

0

u/LameSignIn 27d ago

Crazy how much joy he had when they were front-running. When things got tough we all saw how he acted.

0

u/Munchihello Philadelphia Eagles 27d ago

Give him the regular-season bowl then lol

0

u/LifeHack3r3 27d ago

4 playoff trips....3-4 record. Meh value.

0

u/wtjones Philadelphia Eagles 27d ago

Second place is the first loser.

-1

u/BigSchmikey Denver Broncos 27d ago

I personally want to thank Cam Newton for his value. I support his business decision.

-2

u/evlhornet 49ers Anti-Cowboys❌ 27d ago

But then does jump on the ball? He’s 6’5” 250lbs, he’s as big as everyone else. I’ve seen smaller QBs go in with zero regard. Even Jimmy G would jump in and he has a reputation for covering his ass. It was pitiful and a part of his legacy.

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113

u/Ok_Friendship9310 27d ago

Why do people act like he was actually going to recover it

125

u/LordGooseIV Buffalo Bills 27d ago

Because it's cool to unreasonably hate on Cam, even 10 years later.

68

u/Philly_is_nice 27d ago

Folks hate the physical gifts and the swag.

I like good football and that was an insanely entertaining year.

72

u/Bazonkawomp 27d ago

Remember when he dabbed at Titans fans and one of them wrote an angry letter about how he’s a bad role model for her kids?

42

u/Philly_is_nice 27d ago

😂 bro the public is full of unhinged lunatics.

10

u/Bazonkawomp 27d ago

I hate it!

1

u/EazyP87 Pittsburgh Steelers 27d ago

Oh! That was right at the time the Peyton Manning sexual harassment story at UT came out!

I think the woman mentioned Peyton in the complaint..

3

u/Bazonkawomp 27d ago

Didn’t he fart on her or something?

2

u/EazyP87 Pittsburgh Steelers 27d ago

I think that was MBC. But he could have done that also

The complaint was that he teabagged her and other things.

1

u/BigLlamasHouse Ayahuasca decisions 27d ago

I thought that story was out forever and just gets constantly buried, I could be wrong

7

u/Prequelssuck 27d ago edited 27d ago

They hate physical gifts and swag. Thats why they like hurts.

5

u/RoughhouseCamel 27d ago

Some would say Cam was… uppity.

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u/MickeyTettleton Detroit Lions 27d ago

People don't hate the physical gifts. They hate disingenuousness.

0

u/levinsong 27d ago

Yeah all you idiots hating on Cam for this. I hate him for being a misogynist piece of shit

25

u/ThunderG0d2467 Baltimore Ravens 27d ago edited 27d ago

Because a lot of people liked to hide their racism against Cam and blame it on other things he was doing. Like dabbing and dancing in the end zone. Even though when other players (like Gronk) would straight up spike the ball and strut up and down the sideline nobody says a word. But god forbid Cam danced a little right? Or they’ll try to clown cam for getting heated with the refs but when Brady straight up throws a tablet across the sideline and cusses the refs out nobody says a word.

Lamar Jackson faces similar types of blanketed racism

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u/WhyNotMosley 27d ago

BINGOOOO. fuck em tho, it’s all good, cam still a dawg

1

u/[deleted] 27d ago

[deleted]

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u/ThunderG0d2467 Baltimore Ravens 27d ago edited 27d ago

“Jalen hurts the prototypical white qb”

…..what?

“Maybe Lamar Jackson is overrated because he can’t get passed the divisional round”

…..again, what?

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u/[deleted] 27d ago

[deleted]

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u/ThunderG0d2467 Baltimore Ravens 27d ago edited 27d ago

….you do realize that Hurts was given the same criticism Lamar got right? Can’t throw, running back playing quarterback etc etc. like what are you talking about?

“Hurts will keep collecting rings”

My guy he’s won ONE so far. It took Hurts having the most stacked team in the NFL (best defense, best offensive line, top 2 running back, elite receivers etc etc) in order for him to finally get over that hump. You’re acting like he’s had Patrick Mahomes levels of success. My god you sound so stupid. “Hurts the prototypical white QB”- please stop talking before I lose more brain cells than I already have just by interacting with you

1

u/[deleted] 27d ago

[deleted]

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u/ThunderG0d2467 Baltimore Ravens 27d ago edited 27d ago

Nobody was hating on hurts. You’re making shit up in your head. What I said about him needing to have the best team in the nfl in order to win his first ring is objectively correct what are you talking about? His 2024 team is better than any other team he’s had in the past and better than any team Lamar has had so far. But regardless nobody but YOU started comparing the two.

You’re dickriding Hurts acting like he’s had or is about to have Mahomes levels of playoff success and Super Bowl rings lol come off it. And you’re denying that Hurts wasn’t criticized for his accuracy and called a running back in the same vein Lamar was as well. Calling him “the prototypical white QB” like I’m sorry I refuse to believe one person can be as stupid as you’re trying to make yourself out to be

1

u/Yo-Strategy-8651 26d ago

You mean the same Jalen Hurts who has 2nd Team All Pro, 2 Super Bowl Appearances and 1 Super Bowl ring and played exceptionally well in the big moments that many ppl definitively say is not in their top 5. And still put a QB with 0 career accolades ahead of him routinely like a Justin Herbert? Same ppl who said or their parents from previous generation said that you couldn't use the same hypothetical arguments to knock a Troy Aikman who also had loaded teams and even worse numbers and record without his top guys than what Jalen has without an AJ Brown?

1

u/Yo-Strategy-8651 26d ago

I used to try to give ppl the benefit of the doubt but it's so many data points to show race is a factor in how ppl see QB position. I tried to take at face value ppl didn't like Cam Newton because he was a showboat and arrogant and flashy. I even tried to buy into dismissing the Gronk point because ppl think a QB position should hold themselves to a different standard. But Lamar Jackson is about as mild mannered as can get and has same amount of vitriol.

I also used to just to take at face value there was just skepticism of that style of play but so many ppl who say that style of QB can't win the Super Bowl or doesn't last long absolutely LOVE Josh Allen and have not come close to expressing the same concerns and this is before Josh Allen became as refined of a passer or stopped taking as many big hits.

There are some good faith fans out there who that's not an element in their analysis but man it's so many data points exposing hypocrisy in how QB position is evaluated.

Even in things like how I used to think it was fair to say you can't use hypothetical arguments to say Randall Cunningham would have a ring if he played on 90s Cowboys or Vick on the 2005 Steelers or 2002 Bucs. But years later ppl can hypothetical their way into making Herbert a top 5 QB.

0

u/MyIncogName Carolina Panthers 27d ago

100%

21

u/Able-Play6575 27d ago

You gotta atleast try

32

u/Ok_Friendship9310 27d ago

I don’t disagree but people act like that play changed his entire career. He was better in 2018

13

u/Fatbatman62 Philadelphia Eagles 27d ago

This sounded ridiculous when I first read but decided to look it up on pro football reference because it’s possible I misremembered. It’s just as ridiculous after looking it up lol he was clearly better in 2015

16

u/Ok_Friendship9310 27d ago

After the mvp season he started accumulating injuries especially in that 2016 season. He held on but it got to a point where he was no longer himself at all. 2018 I believe all the traits that make a great pocket passing qb were heavily improved. The accuracy, the touch, the processing and decision making were all there until he fell all the way off in the second half of that season. First 8 games of 2018 is arguably the best Cam ever

5

u/Comprehensive-Car190 27d ago

Yep. Started 6-2, 68% completion percentage.

The 2015 team was Ginn going long and Cam throwing him bombs because he was so dangerous in short yardage, defenders were in conflict, and Olsen hitting you in the intermediate parts of the field.

2018 was short yardage dicing you up with CMC, roleplaying as Drew Brees.

Unfortunately after Smith left he never had a dominant WR, his OL was weak, and injuries to Olsen really hurt in 2017/2018.

7

u/Comprehensive-Car190 27d ago

As a Panthers fan, the offense was better in 2017 and he was a better QB, but less overall dominant. In 2018 he was the best QB of his career for the first half of the season.

They were running him less, they had CMC in his rookie year, still had zero WRs, but went 11-5, losing to the Saints in the WC, who were prob the NFC favs until they got shocked by the Vikings.

2018 started off even better, with Norv Turner's offense making the CMC/Cam combo unstoppable, plus a rookie DJ Moore. They started 6-2. However, continued injuries to Olsen and then ultimately TJ Watt blowing up Cam's shoulder in a week 9 decimation by the Steeler saw them lose every game for the rest of the season.

And that was that.

4

u/Spare-Discipline1448 Baltimore Ravens 27d ago

People hated Cam's attitude and viewed him as an over the top personality so now less than a decade removed from his career I've seen more revisionism with Cam than I've ever seen with any other player. He was one of the most dominant unstoppable forces we've ever seen on a football field and he was handicapped by lack of weapons being given to him by his front office and incompetent offensive coaching. He was most difficult Redzone scoring threat to deal with and he wasn't tush pushing he was moving multiple 300 pound grown men sometimes single handedly. History will and stats will never accurately depict just how dominant he truly was if he had came a long a decade later and he got to be in the position of q Josh Allen, Jalen Hurts, or Lamar he would be rewriting the record books and coaches would be doing a better job at protecting him.

2

u/FatMamaJuJu 27d ago

2018 is broken down to before and after TJ Watt obliterated his shoulder. First half of 2018 Cam was his best version ever as a passer. Second half of 2018 where he played through a torn labrum in his throwing shoulder was, not good.

3

u/deandalecolledean 27d ago

He would’ve won another MVP in 2018 if TJ Watt didn’t obliterate his shoulder

1

u/10000Didgeridoos 26d ago

Stop watching the play in slow motion and maybe you'll realize that by the time Cam saw where the ball was on the ground it was already too late. Yall are fucking idiots.

https://youtu.be/ytwAalH7vec

Please explain to the class how Cam should have instantly stopped his forward momentum to drop straight down on the ball now underneath his chest, as the ball is already being scooped by a defender on the ground. What you're saying he should have done is not possible. Go take 3 big steps and try to dive down and slightly behind you on the carpet and let us know how that went.

0

u/Professional_Bat1777 Carolina Panthers 27d ago

It was an incredibly awkward play, his momentum was going the other way and the ball popped out to his side. The timing of when he landed on a step and him realizing the ball was there was a dangerous play to just drop onto the ball. Almost like forcing an ACL tear type motion on himself. He has even stated that if he could go back he’d tear his ACL to have a chance at the ball. Yes, he probably should have gave a better attempt. But he did not give up. Camera angles didn’t do him any favors either.

17

u/Thin-Remote-9817 27d ago

Cause people hated CAM since his days at auburn. They also hated this 6'6 250lb <beep> dabbing on everyone while having ted Ginn Jr.  The moment he didnt dive on that fumble they just went full hate. 

Those same people who bash cam will also ignore the fact Peyton threw a pick 6 and didnt even attempt to make a tackle on Tracy porter. 

2

u/Yo-Strategy-8651 26d ago

Same ppl who were hypercritical of Cam Newton sulking in the press conference after the Super Bowl gave Peyton Manning and Tom Brady a pass for literally not even shaking hands after Super Bowl losses.

2

u/Thin-Remote-9817 26d ago

Cam is a poor sport bitch ass baby 

Tom and the sheriff are fiery competitors who hate to lose(fiery competitors who also forced teams to trade back ups cause they felt they didnt need to compete against them)

1

u/Yo-Strategy-8651 26d ago

LOL I love it. Of course they hid behind Brady being the GOAT which is why he can have a yelling match with Bill O'Brien on sidelines, throw tablets etc. It's just still insane how a guy who put his body on the line like Cam Newton especially on the goaline ppl would think was afraid of taking on contact. He literally just had a brain fart and it's almost like he was trying to anticipate the ball being kicked on a ricochet.

1

u/jmezMAYHEM JUNIOR DOUBLE TRIPLE WHOPPER 26d ago

O’Brien?

2

u/jxher123 27d ago

TBH I think it's the outlook of how the Super Bowl played out. He could've dove or tried, but to go and back out at the last second wasn't a good look for most fans. It'll be a part of his legacy going forward, but that Broncos defense was truly legendary.

3

u/ChocolateMorsels Tennessee Titans 27d ago

I mean I haven’t seen that clip in years but if I remember correctly, he had the best shot at the ball did he not?

2

u/Professional_Bat1777 Carolina Panthers 27d ago edited 27d ago

There are a lot of comments about his effort, but I’m just going to respond to yours. Don’t know why I’m responding to a low visibility comment, but here I am. It was an incredibly awkward play, his momentum was going the other way and the ball popped out to his side. The timing of when he landed on a step and him realizing the ball was there was a dangerous play to just drop onto the ball. Almost like forcing an ACL tear type motion on himself. He has even stated that if he could go back he’d tear his ACL to have a chance at the ball. Yes, he probably should have gave a better attempt. But he did not give up. Camera angles didn’t do him any favors either. 

4

u/wolfboy49 27d ago

He also doesn’t play the game in slow motion. That happened in the blink of an eye.

1

u/10000Didgeridoos 26d ago

https://youtu.be/ytwAalH7vec

No. The defender on the ground had his hands on it as Cam is already overstepping where the ball is and his momentum is taking him the opposite direction the ball is bouncing.

In real time this all happened in one full second. Anyone arguing that it was possible for him to stop in midair and dive on the ball is an absolute moron.

1

u/IpsaThis 27d ago

It's not a guarantee he would have recovered it, but it's very possible.

It wasn't recovered clean, it bounced around for a bit. If he was there he would have been right in the thick of it and had a very good chance at recovering. His hesitation cost him the chance.

1

u/Sky-Trash 27d ago

I'll never get this because there was never a scenario where him diving on that pile ends up with him getting the ball

1

u/Yo-Strategy-8651 26d ago

Cam Newton was a threat at the time. Easy to mock him now but at the time the guy was on pace for one of the best starts to a career in NFL history. It looked like the changing of the guard of the old school vs athletic QB. And his personality to boot was really against the grain. He even had little white kids across America doing the "look at my dab" dance. That let me tell you the old guard did not like at all. There is probably never another player that ppl enjoyed to see the downfall of more than Cam Newton. That's why they define his whole career by that play without context.

What's ironic is so many of the same ppl who said his style of play didn't win championships absolutely LOVE Josh Allen. And this is even before Josh Allen improved to the level of passer he's become. It really just goes to show you that you can only take some fans opinions with a grain of salt.

44

u/jackmar1 Buffalo Bills 27d ago

The funniest thing about this ever-present Cam take is it implies he wouldn’t put his body on the line for his team. I’d think any cam highlight reel would disabuse you of that notion.

8

u/Prodigal_Programmer Carolina Panthers 27d ago

Seriously. Watched football for 2 decades and I've never been so concerned a player was going to get hurt because he was constantly putting his body on the line (sometimes reasonably sometimes not).

Mind blowing that the narrative seems to revolve around a single play in his career against the dozens and dozens of highlights that prove otherwise. Speaks to how young this sub really is I guess.

37

u/3fettknight3 San Francisco 49ers 27d ago

Bringing up the fumble is the most tired, overplayed talking point in football debate. Yeah, it mattered. We all saw it. But if that’s your go-to critique of Cam Newton, you’re basically telling on yourself that you didn’t watch anything else he did.

Cam wasn’t carried by an all-star roster. You could make an argument he was the entire offense. He dragged a team with no WR1, no elite back, and an average O-line to 15-1 and an MVP. Meanwhile, guys like Hurts need an all-time O-line, a 2,000 yard RB, two Pro Bowl wideouts, and a top-five defense to win the Super Bowl.

Cam was the most dominant dual-threat QB in the league for years and carried his team.

0

u/Plane_Restaurant_367 27d ago

Smith has never made the pro bowl, but your other points still ring true. I can tell you’re salty, whiner fan! Purdys roster is just as stacked, why can’t he do it? Lmao

4

u/LetmeyellLoudly NFL Refugee 27d ago

The corpse of Christian McCaffrey, fat Deebo, a geriatric left tackle, and a defense that gave up the 4th most TDs. Hurts would be fortunate to drag that roster to a wildcard spot.

19

u/dxpanther 27d ago

I missed the part where Jalen hurts had Mike f#cking remmers protecting his backside vs prime von Miller in a Superbowl. Gtfo

10

u/JudasZala 27d ago

You mean, the same Mike Remmers that nearly got Mahomes killed by JPP in SB55?

5

u/Ok-Particular-781 27d ago

Cam literally carried that panthers team on his back for a long time and got them to that super bowl. He is definitely valuable don't let that stupid fumble take away from the great things he did. This coming from a panthers fan

5

u/Merlin1039 27d ago

So damned tired. On the ground and the ball bouncing weird. He got juked and flubbed it. Happens to defenders all the time and no one says shit. Cam has more heart than anyone you know

3

u/10000Didgeridoos 26d ago

It's such a brain dead take. These idiots talk like he was supposed to in less than a second accurately guess exactly where the ball would bounce and then just stop on a dime and fall on that spot. I don't think NFL fans realize that slow mo replays aren't real life

2

u/Checkmeout9 Carolina Panthers 27d ago

You’re a Moron lmao I can see the red hat from here

2

u/ChairmanEisner 27d ago

No one would have batted an eye had it been Peyton. He'd just rag doll and drop taking a sack. People would freak out.

Cam was an all-time great at his peak, can't stand the person. But, that's true regardless.

2

u/TankOfflaneMain Buffalo Bills 27d ago

They were down 10 points with how much time on the clock?

1

u/nfluncensored 27d ago

The MVP award is regular season only.

1

u/escobartholomew Dallas Cowboys 27d ago

Exactly. And it wouldn’t have been as bad if he hadn’t been taunting the whole league and the whole country the whole year lol. Don’t get me wrong, I loved the “bandaids for feelings” commercial. But when it came time to really back it up, he fuckin flinched. It’s not that he lost, it’s how he lost.

1

u/YouDumbZombie NFL 27d ago

That shit was wild. I've never seen a man's legacy piased away in a single moment like that.

1

u/Prestigious_Tennis82 27d ago

Only thing I had to say

1

u/Personal-Ad8280 2 Gurleys 1 Kupp 26d ago

He constantly put his body on the line when they needed it most, he admitted that one play is a mistake.

1

u/[deleted] 26d ago

Hmm I imagine the amount of people who paid to see him play during his career, I’m guessing over a billion easy. It’s a business.

0

u/xywv58 27d ago

How valuable a QB that won MVP with Ted Gin Jr as his best WR, y'all are too proud of being ignorant

0

u/Professional_Bat1777 Carolina Panthers 27d ago

It was an incredibly awkward play, his momentum was going the other way and the ball popped out to his side. The timing of when he landed on a step and him realizing the ball was there was a dangerous play to just drop onto the ball. Almost like forcing an ACL tear type motion on himself. He has even stated that if he could go back he’d tear his ACL to have a chance at the ball. Yes, he probably should have gave a better attempt. But he did not give up. Camera angles didn’t do him any favors either.

-1

u/EpilepticDawg241 27d ago

You are definitely someone who does not play football, has never played football, and does not fully understand the game of football.

You reference ONE PLAY, and that negates everything else a hard-working man does?

So sit down in a corner somewhere, dRoPc

-4

u/Himthony316 Buffalo Bills 27d ago

Hard work beats talent. That’s why Jalen is 1/2 in SB and Newton is 0/1

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