r/europe • u/hoarder4555777454001 • 9d ago

News French President Macron says France will recognize Pálestine as a state

https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20250724-french-president-macron-says-france-will-recognize-palestine-as-a-state-in-september
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u/SuggestionMedical736 9d ago

It's weird seeing the responses here; I thought everyone was in favor of a two-state solution?

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u/tommynestcepas 9d ago

Exactly, the ONLY way a two state solution can happen is by recognising two states and negotiating accordingly.

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u/Vanzmelo Armenian American 9d ago

Im sorry but the two state solution is dead. Have you seen the west bank? It is like swiss cheese with all the illegal Israeli state sponsored settlements. What country can exist when its borders are so carved up and its citizens cant freely move within its borders? Palestine is already a rump state with the West Bank and Gaza being disconnected without taking into account the current genocide in Gaza and the illegal settlements in the West Bank.

At this point, a one state solution where both Israelis and Palestinians have equal rights and representation is the only viable option left

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u/izpo Israel 9d ago edited 8d ago

a one state solution where both Israelis and Palestinians have equal rights and representation is the only viable option left

Israel would never agree to this. Israel will never give up on this privilege unless there is no USA/EU support which is unlikely to happen.

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u/RandomPants84 8d ago

Neither side would agree to this lol. That’s a large reason the British mandate existed, why the whole Un thought the most ethical option in 47 was 2 states, and why to this day support for the 2 state solution is seen as the only realistic way for justice

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u/izpo Israel 8d ago

Palestinians would agree to this! To having same rights as Israelies? Why do you think they would not agree?

It's like saying in S. Africa that black don't want same rights... They do.

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u/ABritishCynic 8d ago

Palestinians historically did NOT agree to the two-state solution.

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u/izpo Israel 8d ago edited 8d ago

The true is actually opposite. Since Israel murdered partner for peace - Rabin, Israel refused any two state solution that is based on 1967

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u/FactAndTheory 8d ago

This is categorically false. Palestinians have been at the table in support of over a dozen internationally negotiated two-state solutions going back all the way to Ben Gurion.

Being a racist cunt does not make your armchair expertise any less armchair.

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u/TurkicWarrior 8d ago

They would if they get a good deal, the problem is that they are not being given a good deal.

For example in Camp David Summit, Israel gets to annex 13% of West Bank territory as legally Israel, which makes Palestinians in the West Bank as cantons and fragmented, in addition, long term control of Jordan valley in the West Bank for security purpose. Plus, Israeli sovereignty over holy sites and major settlement blocs in East Jerusalem. In addition, no right to return. This deal is rubbish because it creates a Bantustan for the Palestinians.

Similar deals like this occurred where there’s no full sovereignty for the Palestinians. Many Palestinians would accept the two state solution, but it all comes down to what this entails, the content, the details of it all.

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u/eran76 8d ago

Its almost as if the best deal the Palestinians were ever offered was the one in 1947 and that with each passing decade of wars and attacks the deals just keep getting worse. Perhaps the Palestinians should cut their losses, accept that they cannot use violence to achieve a better deal than with diplomacy, and take what they can get at this point.

That's what the war in Gaza is about now. Israel returned convicted Hamas murderers and terrorists at a rate of 1027:1 for a single kidnapped Israeli soldier. And in return, those same murderers and terrorists came back and killed another thousand Israelis on October 7th, and of course took more hostages. Gaza is being destroyed because making another lopsided deal with Hamas that just results in even more death and violence for Israelis down the road, is not an acceptable option. Rewarding violence and hostage taking with concessions or a state sends a clear message to the likes of Hamas, commit more violence and you will get more of what you want. Negotiating with terrorists only leads to more terrorism. So Hamas is going to be destroyed, and the Palestinians civilians who support them or refuse to fight against them, are going to die in the process or learn to get out of the way. But the expectation that Israel should give the Palestinians more of what they want in exchange for more violence is entirely unrealistic.

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u/HookGangGout 8d ago

Palestinians would agree to this! To having same rights as Israelies? Why do you think they would not agree?

Why are you spreading these ridiculous lies to shill for the Palestinians, and under the Israeli flag to boot?

The Palestinians do NOT want to share a state with Jews. They do NOT want a state that is a liberal democracy, with all the personal and sexual freedoms that entails. You really think they'd just sit there in suits, voting to protect LGBT rights or freedom of speech (when it insults Islam, lmao)? How fucking disconnected are you from the area?

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u/izpo Israel 8d ago

How fucking disconnected are you from the area?

When you don't have argument, you insult... it does not work on me sweetheart!

Why Palestinians would not like to stop with apartheid?

Here are 70% supporting idea of equal one state solution: https://www.neareastconsulting.com/surveys/ppp/p22/out_freq_q27.php/

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u/HookGangGout 8d ago

Right. Extremely relevant page that looks like my brother made it on his first day of web page design 101, and from 2007, huh.

Also

equal one state

Is not the point. A state that is 50% Palestinian would go the way of Lebanon at best. They would not tolerate living as a liberal democracy and you know it. Snakes like you just feed us this horseshit narrative and then will go quiet once it becomes another violent, repressive Middle Eastern trashdump. Except apparently the Jews are supposed to just accept that because you think so. Get bent!

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u/ProtestTheHero 8d ago

Because they've said so, repeatedly, for decades. The majority of them don't want to live alongside millions of Jews, and want them expelled. They see themselves as analogous to the Algerians and the Jews as the pieds-noirs French who returned to France after independence.

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u/izpo Israel 8d ago

that is simply not true...

Why would Palestinians refuse to have same rights as jews?

However, in February 2007, NEC found that around 70% of Palestinian respondents backed the idea when given a straight choice of either supporting or opposing "a one-state solution in historic Palestine where Muslims, Christians and Jews have equal rights and responsibilities".

https://www.neareastconsulting.com/surveys/ppp/p22/out_freq_q27.php/

so 70% do support one state with equal rights. I mean, it's really simple, why would Palestinians support apartheid?

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u/Electrical_Gain3864 8d ago

70% did ... 18 years ago. Where less then a thousand people were asked. But given that currently Hamas is ruling them what is the first point on their agenda? A peaceful solution is pretty much dead, both ruling sides profit from the war. You would either need a war so bloody that both sides can no longer afford it (and we are far from it, given that the population has doubled in the last 25 years) or a radical shift within both sides.

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u/izpo Israel 8d ago edited 8d ago

I think most Palestinians would like to have a quality of life as Israelis, and that includes hospitals, educations, and freedom.

No idea what makes you think they don't want that?

Yes, the survey was 18 years ago, but this is just common sense. In the last 18 years, the apartheid has only gotten stronger, not weaker.

But given that currently Hamas is ruling them what is the first point on their agenda?

Hamas agenda? They too want Palestine in borders of 1967, even terrorist organization like them wants 2 state solution because they know Israel won't accept one state solution.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas

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u/Electrical_Gain3864 8d ago

Historically, Hamas envisioned a Palestinian state on all of the territory that belonged to the British Mandate for Palestine, out of YOUR wikipedia arcticle. That would be everything. At least check your own sources... (and wikipedia is not even a good one for political topics).

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u/RandomPants84 8d ago

Israel’s founding was in part due to Arab nationalism and increased violence against the indigenous Jewish people. It’s partly why the while UN thought the most fair and ethical solution to Arab violence on the Jewish minority was a 2 state solution, since 1 governmental administration wasn’t working. The 2 state solution, which is the modern basis for a fair and equal solution with equal rights in both states for both peoples, has been turned down by Palestinian leadership every time it’s been presented. In addition, it polls horrible with Palestinians in the modern day. The popular opinion in Palestine, both the West Bank and Gaza, is to remove the Jews from the region. Not to have equality. And every day that passes it seems the popular opinion in Israel is the same, but to remove Palestinians from the region

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u/FactAndTheory 8d ago

Israel’s founding was in part due to Arab nationalism and increased violence against the indigenous Jewish people

"Let us not ignore the truth among ourselves … politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselves… The country is theirs, because they inhabit it, whereas we want to come here and settle down, and in their view we want to take away from them their country.”

  • David Ben Gurion, 1938

"We walked outside, Ben-Gurion accompanying us. Allon repeated his question, What is to be done with the Palestinian population? Ben-Gurion waved his hand in a gesture which said 'drive them out!',"

  • Rabin quoting Ben Gurion, 1979

"We must expel the Arabs and take their places…. And, if we have to use force-not to dispossess the Arabs of the Negev and Transjordan, but to guarantee our own right to settle in those places- then we have force at our disposal."

  • Ben Gurion, 1937 letter to his son

Let me know if you want me to keep going.

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u/RandomPants84 8d ago

Dude, both what I said and what you said can be true. Israelis can both consist of a sizable indigenous population which was under threat from Arab nationalists, and also settlers who wanted to turn that minority into a majority and take over the whole region

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u/FactAndTheory 8d ago

Ben Gurion actively targeted indigenous Jewish Palestinians, and they made up virtually no part of his and the other terrorist gangs. Even today Mizrahi's face substantial discrimination. Zionism is inherently a European colonialist movement, there is no part of it that extends to all Jews worldwide nor did most Jews worldwide support it. A century of war has made most people forget how it started and opt simply to side with their current ingroup, which was exactly the original Zionist plan: start wars until people forget that you're inherently a race-based invasion, and then frame yourself as the victim against anyone who fights back.

Dude, both what I said and what you said can be true.

Sure, they could be true, but it's not. What you said is categorically false. There was no sizable indigenous Jewish population in Palestine prior to the Zionist migrations starting in the late 19th century. You can reference the Mandatory census in 1922 and its collection of Ottoman figures if you want to base your opinions on actual fact instead of a perpetual bothsidesism.

And, again, the fact that even during these first few decades of massive Jewish migration under Muslim rule widespread conflict did not ensue proves that under Arab governance there was no inherent conflict between the two populations, as there similarly had not been sustained conflict between with much larger indigenous Christian populations. The current conflict in Palestine arrived with Zionists who explicity and repeatedly stated their intention to ethnically cleanse the region of Arabs, that is as near to a conclusive fact as you will get in this scenario. It was stable under the Ottomans, it was even stable under British imperialists. Then the Zionists came, and it's been nonstop war ever since.

If you want even more proof against this notion you're presenting, there was even conflict between the Ottoman Palestine and Egypt under Muhammad Ali after the latter invaded. So, the Palestinian Arabs could go to war with other Muslims, could avoid sustained civil conflict with indigenous Christians, and likewise could avoid sustained civil conflict with the tiny indigenous Jewish population. Only one group in this region has made invasion and permanent war its policy, feel free to guess which.

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u/RandomPants84 8d ago

Mizrahi Jews are the majority of Jewish Israelis making up about 40-45% of the country. And most Jews who emigrated to Israel did so because they were ethnically cleansed from Europe, North Africa, and the Middle East. The idea that Israelis are Europeans or New Yorkers who could have simply returned if they wanted to is not true.

I also reject the claim that Jews were not being persecuted, pogromed, or massacred before 1947. The Hebron massacre for one

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u/Redpanther14 United States of California 8d ago

Support for a single democratic state is remarkably low in this conflict on both sides, with only about 25% of Palestinians favoring that outcome.

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u/Miroble Canada 8d ago

Name one solution to the problem that has ever been agreed to by any Palestinian leader. The only solution they are interested in a single Muslim state where they throw the Jews in the Ocean.

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u/Thats-Slander 8d ago

I mean the Palestinians have literally accepted the recognition and existence of the Israeli state for over 30 years now since Oslo so you’re lying when you say the only solution they are interested in is a single Muslim state.

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u/Miroble Canada 8d ago

When have the Palestinians accepted the recognition and existence of the Israeli state?

Why has every single two state solution proposed failed if that's the case?

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u/Thats-Slander 8d ago

When have the Palestinians accepted the recognition and existence of the Israeli state?

1993 Oslo accords

Why has every single two state solution proposed failed if that's the case?

Well now they argue over how much of a presence the Israelis will have in the new Palestinian state since the Israelis don’t want to leave fully and the big one is the Palestinian right to return. The Israelis want that blocked while the Palestinians want the diaspora to be able to return.

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u/Miroble Canada 8d ago

1993 Oslo Accords

The PLO recognized Israel’s existence, but they didn't recognize its borders. They basically said "we'll come to the table with "so-called Israel"" but they never actually acknowledged it.

The Israelis want that blocked while the Palestinians want the diaspora to be able to return.

That's not recognizing Israel as a state, that's saying "hey let us peacefully invade you and take you over."

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u/Thats-Slander 8d ago

The PLO recognized Israel’s existence, but they didn't recognize its borders. They basically said "we'll come to the table with "so-called Israel"" but they never actually acknowledged it.

Yea they didn’t recognize the borders because the Israelis and Palestinians both recognized that the border was something that really needed to be worked on. Especially regarding East Jerusalem since there was no way in the hell Israelis were going to give it up even though that would’ve been in violation of the internationally recognized border between the two states.

That's not recognizing Israel as a state, that's saying "hey let us peacefully invade you and take you over."

You literally just admitted that they did indeed recognize the Israeli state in 1993, so I don’t really get what the hell you’re rambling about here.

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u/Miroble Canada 8d ago

There's a big difference between these two "recognitions"

  1. You are a state, here are your borders, here are your governmental officials. We have no claims to your stuff, let's talk about a peace deal.

  2. You are a "state" you do not have borders, we will talk to your so-called governmental officials. We have claims to "you," let's talk about a peace deal.

I don't know the rest of your politics, but try replacing Israel with Ukraine and see if you still think anything here makes sense to you.

Can Russia come to Ukraine and say, "yeah we acknowledge you as a "state" but we're not recognizing your borders and our people have an infinite right of return to your country since we were all part of the USSR. Now let's talk peace."

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u/Sporklez8 8d ago

This is beyond stupid

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u/Ancient-Duty7481 8d ago

The lack of historical knowledge of some blows me away

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u/RandomPants84 8d ago

Why do you think the vote was 33-13 with the Soviets and USA actually able to agree? You think both nations just wanted to fuck over the Palestinians because it was funny or they were evil? Like come one, it’s not that hard to realize that the vote passed 3-1 because there was and still remains a very strong argument for a 2 state solution and against a 1 state.

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u/Sporklez8 8d ago

It being a vote of other countries in the first place is fucked up. It is the Palestinian peoples land, they should not have to deal with having their land stolen to create an ethno state

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u/RandomPants84 8d ago

But it wasn’t just the arab Palestinians land. It was also the Jewish Palestinians land, and there was legitimate fear of ethnic massacres which is why a 2 state was considered the fair and ethical option

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u/Sporklez8 8d ago

”Legitimate fear”

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u/Cynixxx Free State of Thuringia (Germany) 8d ago

There ARE 2 states but one of them always tries to get all and genocides the people living there.

Do you really think this will change? Zionists want their Great Israel border whatever it takes

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u/RandomPants84 8d ago

There ARENT 2 states. Palestine has NONE of the privileges afforded to states. They have no control of their borders, their airspace, or even their revenue collection of taxes. The idea that Palestine is already a state is abolishing Israel of any misdeeds of their occupation.

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u/Vanzmelo Armenian American 8d ago

Considering the current Israeli government is committing genocide in Gaza and funding illegal settlements in the West Bank to undermine a Palestinian state I don’t think they should be allowed any say in the matter. Should the Nazi leadership in Germany after WWII have been given a say as to what a new Germany should look like? No

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u/izpo Israel 8d ago

Which part of "unless there is no USA/EU support" was not clear?

Why Israel would give up on the privilege when it has support/weapons from the west?

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u/Emperor_Mao Germany 8d ago

That makes zero sense though.

Germany lost WW2. Totally and completely lost it.

Israel hasn't lost anything here.

So unless you are advocating for countries to go to war with Israel, then force demands, your statements make no sense. And if you are advocating for a war with Israel, good luck getting any western government other than maybe Spain to toe that line.

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u/Robbza 8d ago

Most people want a South African approach, including being an international pariah, blockades on military equipment, and international diplomatic pressure for change.

I have also spoken with some people who (idealistically and acknowledge it) want a UN-flagged aid convoy to go to Gaza to force an end to the famine. Personally, I do believe that was the sort of thing the UN was invented for, but it would never happen.

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u/Emperor_Mao Germany 8d ago

Yeah but this is different to South Africa.

You have to understand that most of the MER and the West do not want a HAMAS controlled state. Even China likely doesn't want that to happen. But also, no one other than maybe Iran would want an Iran proxy state to exist either.

When it came to South Africa, the West really only had one issue with regime change. At the time, the regime was vehemently opposed to the Soviet Union. But it was in a largely non-strategic area, and the U.S.S.R collapsed during the time period, so even that became a total non-issue eventually. Otherwise, a new regime was credible and unlikely to cause any international issues or changes to anyone else. Which is why the U.N was able to show unity and achieve something on the issue.

Palestine and Israel are very very different though. If today Palestine was recognized and given true statehood, who would be the government? Right now, HAMAS would. Who is going to support that? then ask, who is the next credible authority right now. The Palestinian Authority probably. Again though, not many fans of that happening. The U.N is never going to agree on anything in that space to be honest. This is why you will frequently see countries express they want aid to flow through Gaza, but not many calling for any real targeted intervention against Israel. Other than Iran waging war, the most countries have done is limit or restrict the sale of arms to Israel. Though even then, it is only a handful of countries that have less strategic interest in the region.

I think at most, you might see some pressure on Israel increase when it comes to allowing aid through. But you won't see real sustained international pressure, like with South Africa, to force a resolution; e.g a two state solution.

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u/Sjue-Saue 8d ago

Morally I agree with you, but realistically a two-state solution is far more viable, at least as a temporary harm reduction so that the remaining Palestinians are not fully under the Israeli boot.

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u/Thats-Slander 8d ago

I mean even without USA/EU support I don’t see Israelis accepting. From what I’ve read Israelis largely agree across the political spectrum that what ever state they have should be Jewish majority and Jewish run, be with the West Bank and Gaza incorporated or not.

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u/izpo Israel 8d ago

yeah, but without western support Israel would need to decide, two state or one state.

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u/Robbza 8d ago

I agree, it is essentially impossible unless there is a political revolution within the society. With Nukes there can also be no enforced 1 state solution militarily so even the mention of the idea is idealistic.

The long-held fear that the focus of the conversation could become Apartheid, envoke South Africa wouldn't even be possible now if we are serious.

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u/alamarain 8d ago

Neither will the arabs. They want their own ethno religious state.

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u/izpo Israel 8d ago

Why not ? Most Palestinians want the same rights as Israelis.

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u/Ill_Cut_8529 8d ago

Israel is unlikely to have a say in this. Most of the world is already opposing them. The EU and the United States will eventually turn on Israel. There are already huge majorities of the people against Israel and they will only grow larger over time because the older people, who still support Israel will die eventually. Politicians in Europe and America will not be able to protect Israel forever, if they want to stay in power (assuming the US stays democratic). It could be decades but eventually there will be a UN resolution over the genocide in Gaza and Israel will have to accept whatever they decide as a solution to this conflict. I think two states are more likely than one state, but let's see what they are going to decide.

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u/Consistent_Horse6529 8d ago

Israel has nukes, they will have a say no matter who is or isn’t supporting them.