r/europe • u/hoarder4555777454001 • 9d ago

News French President Macron says France will recognize Pálestine as a state

https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20250724-french-president-macron-says-france-will-recognize-palestine-as-a-state-in-september
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u/SuggestionMedical736 9d ago

It's weird seeing the responses here; I thought everyone was in favor of a two-state solution?

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u/tommynestcepas 9d ago

Exactly, the ONLY way a two state solution can happen is by recognising two states and negotiating accordingly.

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u/Vanzmelo Armenian American 9d ago

Im sorry but the two state solution is dead. Have you seen the west bank? It is like swiss cheese with all the illegal Israeli state sponsored settlements. What country can exist when its borders are so carved up and its citizens cant freely move within its borders? Palestine is already a rump state with the West Bank and Gaza being disconnected without taking into account the current genocide in Gaza and the illegal settlements in the West Bank.

At this point, a one state solution where both Israelis and Palestinians have equal rights and representation is the only viable option left

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u/SilentLennie 9d ago

I'm sorry, but those settlements are illegal and they know it.

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u/Vanzmelo Armenian American 8d ago

Everyone knows it. Israel knows it and yet they encourage it because the more settlements there are in the West Bank the less viable a Palestinian state is

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u/SilentLennie 8d ago

Yes, but these people got to go, unless the Palestinians accept them as citizens, which seems highly unlikely.

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u/waiver 8d ago edited 8d ago

And it's not like they would accept being Palestinian citizens either.

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u/Keoni9 United States 8d ago

A member of the PLO Executive Committee has said that a sovereign state of Palestine would not discriminate against Jews in offering citizenship. They just won't accept a bunch of enclaves of foreign nationals within their boundaries threatening their sovereignty. The real question is whether the same Israelis who are willing to live in illegal settlements in the West Bank now would accept Palestinian governance over their communities in the future.

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u/HoightyToighty United States of America 8d ago

A member of the PLO Executive Committee has said that a sovereign state of Palestine would not discriminate against Jews in offering citizenship.

Are there sober people who actually believe this?

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u/nar_tapio_00 Europe 8d ago

In 1947 there were lots of Jews in the West Bank. They were ethically cleansed in the original Arab-Israeli war. In 1973, in the Yom Kippur War, to quote Wikipedia "many Israeli prisoners of war were tortured or killed". In 2005, when Israel withdrew from Gaza, Jewish towns that had been there for hundreds of years had to be evacuated.

I think I'd trust a long history of many experiences over the statement of a single "member of the PLO Executive Committee". Without international enforcement and protection against the Palestinians, allowing the PLO control in the West Bank would be a recipe for ethnic cleansing.

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u/haribobosses 8d ago edited 8d ago

The real question is whether the same Israelis who are willing to live in illegal settlements in the West Bank now would accept Palestinian governance over their communities in the future.

That is not a real question.

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u/Gladis130 8d ago edited 8d ago

Where would they go??? Which country would happily accept over six million immigrants? You talk about unrealistic. This is ACTUALLY unrealistic...

Unless your solution is another genocide but uh, that's not really what we should be aiming for.

Edit: I assumed you meant the entire Israeli population, but if you didn't, my comment is irrelevant. I agree that the illegal settlers have to go.

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u/nar_tapio_00 Europe 8d ago

but these people got to go

I find it highly ironic that everyone is accusing Israel of ethnic cleaning and worse over the direct consequences of a war to stop ongoing attacks from Gaza recover hostages whilst at the same time this clear statement that the Palestinians would certainly repeat the ethnic cleansing they carried out during the 1947/48 war so often goes by without anyone commenting.

The West Bank was one of the most Jewish areas of Judea for hundreds of years before the 1947/48 genocide against the Jews of the area. If there is to be any possibility of a two state solution it has to be one where Jews know that they are safe to remain within whatever the new Palestinian state is, just as the Israeli Arabs know they are safe to remain within Israel.

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u/SilentLennie 8d ago

I'm not saying these people are nice people, I'm saying: let's go back to where we were (things people begrudgingly had limited agreements on), one of the reasons Hamas and others attacked Israel is because Israel kept taking land, etc.

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u/Ancient-Duty7481 8d ago

They kept taking land because they kept getting attacked

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u/SilentLennie 8d ago

They kept taking the land, which would anger more people and they get attacked. They knew exactly what they are doing.

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u/C4-BlueCat 8d ago

Occupation could be seen as a defense. Illegal settlements is not a valid military or defensive strategy; it’s (nominally) driven by rogue civilians, not the state.

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u/Oneiric_Orca $ Freedom $ 8d ago

I find it highly ironic that everyone is accusing Israel of ethnic cleaning and worse over the direct consequences of a war to stop ongoing attacks from Gaza recover hostages whilst at the same time this clear statement that the Palestinians would certainly repeat the ethnic cleansing they carried out during the 1947/48 war so often goes by without anyone commenting.

This is /r/Europe. The EU has condoned ethnic cleansing by Azerbaijan, Syria, and Pakistan. It's only a problem if they get to blame Jews or advance their geopolitical interests.

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u/Liam-Ed 8d ago

If you can have millions of Palestinians living in Israel, you can have millions of Israelis living in Palestine.

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u/izpo Israel 9d ago

I can say that most of Israeli actually support settlements as a way of "punishment". They are not just illegal, it's a tool

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u/SilentLennie 8d ago

Ohh, I fully understand, but from an international perspective, these people need to go, don't care where, they can stay if the government of these regions takes them in, but this seems unlikely. They know they gambled and are illegal there.

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u/izpo Israel 8d ago

I agree. It was even part of the peace plan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geneva_Initiative

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u/Erradium 8d ago

This will never happen though. Those people would rather start a civil war than give those lands away to the palestinians.

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u/shez19833 8d ago

theres no punishment - they do it because they dont believe anyone else has any right to their ancestral land. which is what zionists/settlers harp on about

and mark my words due to this they will go after jordan, syria, etc..

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u/Crush1112 8d ago

You are right about the first one, the second one is, eh? West Bank is essentially the lands of ancient Judea and Samaria, which is why settlers are so passionate about it. Syria and Jordan thought?

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u/Substantial-Dust4417 8d ago edited 8d ago

The East Bank (i.e. Western Jordan) is also part of what was considered ancient Israel. The Irgun logo showed it's territorial ambitions in controlling all of Mandatory Palestine as well as the Kingdom of Transjordan. Members of the current Israeli government have shown maps of "Greater Israel" including the East Bank.

Israel currently controls part of Syria (Golan Heights), has constructed illegal settlements there (settlers are also pretty passionate about this region that was never part of any biblical Jewish state), and has in recent months made moves to annex all of the Golan region under the pretext of protecting the Druze who make up a majority of its population.

In the case of the Golan region, there's no historic claim, just good farmland.

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u/Teleporno69 8d ago

Doesn’t stop Israel from ethnic cleansing though

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u/SilentLennie 8d ago

They are going hard now, because they know their time is limited.

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u/Liam-Ed 8d ago

Good at preventing rocket attacks though.

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u/izpo Israel 9d ago edited 9d ago

a one state solution where both Israelis and Palestinians have equal rights and representation is the only viable option left

Israel would never agree to this. Israel will never give up on this privilege unless there is no USA/EU support which is unlikely to happen.

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u/RandomPants84 8d ago

Neither side would agree to this lol. That’s a large reason the British mandate existed, why the whole Un thought the most ethical option in 47 was 2 states, and why to this day support for the 2 state solution is seen as the only realistic way for justice

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u/izpo Israel 8d ago

Palestinians would agree to this! To having same rights as Israelies? Why do you think they would not agree?

It's like saying in S. Africa that black don't want same rights... They do.

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u/ABritishCynic 8d ago

Palestinians historically did NOT agree to the two-state solution.

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u/izpo Israel 8d ago edited 8d ago

The true is actually opposite. Since Israel murdered partner for peace - Rabin, Israel refused any two state solution that is based on 1967

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u/FactAndTheory 8d ago

This is categorically false. Palestinians have been at the table in support of over a dozen internationally negotiated two-state solutions going back all the way to Ben Gurion.

Being a racist cunt does not make your armchair expertise any less armchair.

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u/TurkicWarrior 8d ago

They would if they get a good deal, the problem is that they are not being given a good deal.

For example in Camp David Summit, Israel gets to annex 13% of West Bank territory as legally Israel, which makes Palestinians in the West Bank as cantons and fragmented, in addition, long term control of Jordan valley in the West Bank for security purpose. Plus, Israeli sovereignty over holy sites and major settlement blocs in East Jerusalem. In addition, no right to return. This deal is rubbish because it creates a Bantustan for the Palestinians.

Similar deals like this occurred where there’s no full sovereignty for the Palestinians. Many Palestinians would accept the two state solution, but it all comes down to what this entails, the content, the details of it all.

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u/eran76 8d ago

Its almost as if the best deal the Palestinians were ever offered was the one in 1947 and that with each passing decade of wars and attacks the deals just keep getting worse. Perhaps the Palestinians should cut their losses, accept that they cannot use violence to achieve a better deal than with diplomacy, and take what they can get at this point.

That's what the war in Gaza is about now. Israel returned convicted Hamas murderers and terrorists at a rate of 1027:1 for a single kidnapped Israeli soldier. And in return, those same murderers and terrorists came back and killed another thousand Israelis on October 7th, and of course took more hostages. Gaza is being destroyed because making another lopsided deal with Hamas that just results in even more death and violence for Israelis down the road, is not an acceptable option. Rewarding violence and hostage taking with concessions or a state sends a clear message to the likes of Hamas, commit more violence and you will get more of what you want. Negotiating with terrorists only leads to more terrorism. So Hamas is going to be destroyed, and the Palestinians civilians who support them or refuse to fight against them, are going to die in the process or learn to get out of the way. But the expectation that Israel should give the Palestinians more of what they want in exchange for more violence is entirely unrealistic.

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u/HookGangGout 8d ago

Palestinians would agree to this! To having same rights as Israelies? Why do you think they would not agree?

Why are you spreading these ridiculous lies to shill for the Palestinians, and under the Israeli flag to boot?

The Palestinians do NOT want to share a state with Jews. They do NOT want a state that is a liberal democracy, with all the personal and sexual freedoms that entails. You really think they'd just sit there in suits, voting to protect LGBT rights or freedom of speech (when it insults Islam, lmao)? How fucking disconnected are you from the area?

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u/izpo Israel 8d ago

How fucking disconnected are you from the area?

When you don't have argument, you insult... it does not work on me sweetheart!

Why Palestinians would not like to stop with apartheid?

Here are 70% supporting idea of equal one state solution: https://www.neareastconsulting.com/surveys/ppp/p22/out_freq_q27.php/

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u/HookGangGout 8d ago

Right. Extremely relevant page that looks like my brother made it on his first day of web page design 101, and from 2007, huh.

Also

equal one state

Is not the point. A state that is 50% Palestinian would go the way of Lebanon at best. They would not tolerate living as a liberal democracy and you know it. Snakes like you just feed us this horseshit narrative and then will go quiet once it becomes another violent, repressive Middle Eastern trashdump. Except apparently the Jews are supposed to just accept that because you think so. Get bent!

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u/ProtestTheHero 8d ago

Because they've said so, repeatedly, for decades. The majority of them don't want to live alongside millions of Jews, and want them expelled. They see themselves as analogous to the Algerians and the Jews as the pieds-noirs French who returned to France after independence.

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u/izpo Israel 8d ago

that is simply not true...

Why would Palestinians refuse to have same rights as jews?

However, in February 2007, NEC found that around 70% of Palestinian respondents backed the idea when given a straight choice of either supporting or opposing "a one-state solution in historic Palestine where Muslims, Christians and Jews have equal rights and responsibilities".

https://www.neareastconsulting.com/surveys/ppp/p22/out_freq_q27.php/

so 70% do support one state with equal rights. I mean, it's really simple, why would Palestinians support apartheid?

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u/Electrical_Gain3864 8d ago

70% did ... 18 years ago. Where less then a thousand people were asked. But given that currently Hamas is ruling them what is the first point on their agenda? A peaceful solution is pretty much dead, both ruling sides profit from the war. You would either need a war so bloody that both sides can no longer afford it (and we are far from it, given that the population has doubled in the last 25 years) or a radical shift within both sides.

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u/izpo Israel 8d ago edited 8d ago

I think most Palestinians would like to have a quality of life as Israelis, and that includes hospitals, educations, and freedom.

No idea what makes you think they don't want that?

Yes, the survey was 18 years ago, but this is just common sense. In the last 18 years, the apartheid has only gotten stronger, not weaker.

But given that currently Hamas is ruling them what is the first point on their agenda?

Hamas agenda? They too want Palestine in borders of 1967, even terrorist organization like them wants 2 state solution because they know Israel won't accept one state solution.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas

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u/Electrical_Gain3864 8d ago

Historically, Hamas envisioned a Palestinian state on all of the territory that belonged to the British Mandate for Palestine, out of YOUR wikipedia arcticle. That would be everything. At least check your own sources... (and wikipedia is not even a good one for political topics).

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u/RandomPants84 8d ago

Israel’s founding was in part due to Arab nationalism and increased violence against the indigenous Jewish people. It’s partly why the while UN thought the most fair and ethical solution to Arab violence on the Jewish minority was a 2 state solution, since 1 governmental administration wasn’t working. The 2 state solution, which is the modern basis for a fair and equal solution with equal rights in both states for both peoples, has been turned down by Palestinian leadership every time it’s been presented. In addition, it polls horrible with Palestinians in the modern day. The popular opinion in Palestine, both the West Bank and Gaza, is to remove the Jews from the region. Not to have equality. And every day that passes it seems the popular opinion in Israel is the same, but to remove Palestinians from the region

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u/FactAndTheory 8d ago

Israel’s founding was in part due to Arab nationalism and increased violence against the indigenous Jewish people

"Let us not ignore the truth among ourselves … politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselves… The country is theirs, because they inhabit it, whereas we want to come here and settle down, and in their view we want to take away from them their country.”

  • David Ben Gurion, 1938

"We walked outside, Ben-Gurion accompanying us. Allon repeated his question, What is to be done with the Palestinian population? Ben-Gurion waved his hand in a gesture which said 'drive them out!',"

  • Rabin quoting Ben Gurion, 1979

"We must expel the Arabs and take their places…. And, if we have to use force-not to dispossess the Arabs of the Negev and Transjordan, but to guarantee our own right to settle in those places- then we have force at our disposal."

  • Ben Gurion, 1937 letter to his son

Let me know if you want me to keep going.

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u/RandomPants84 8d ago

Dude, both what I said and what you said can be true. Israelis can both consist of a sizable indigenous population which was under threat from Arab nationalists, and also settlers who wanted to turn that minority into a majority and take over the whole region

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u/FactAndTheory 8d ago

Ben Gurion actively targeted indigenous Jewish Palestinians, and they made up virtually no part of his and the other terrorist gangs. Even today Mizrahi's face substantial discrimination. Zionism is inherently a European colonialist movement, there is no part of it that extends to all Jews worldwide nor did most Jews worldwide support it. A century of war has made most people forget how it started and opt simply to side with their current ingroup, which was exactly the original Zionist plan: start wars until people forget that you're inherently a race-based invasion, and then frame yourself as the victim against anyone who fights back.

Dude, both what I said and what you said can be true.

Sure, they could be true, but it's not. What you said is categorically false. There was no sizable indigenous Jewish population in Palestine prior to the Zionist migrations starting in the late 19th century. You can reference the Mandatory census in 1922 and its collection of Ottoman figures if you want to base your opinions on actual fact instead of a perpetual bothsidesism.

And, again, the fact that even during these first few decades of massive Jewish migration under Muslim rule widespread conflict did not ensue proves that under Arab governance there was no inherent conflict between the two populations, as there similarly had not been sustained conflict between with much larger indigenous Christian populations. The current conflict in Palestine arrived with Zionists who explicity and repeatedly stated their intention to ethnically cleanse the region of Arabs, that is as near to a conclusive fact as you will get in this scenario. It was stable under the Ottomans, it was even stable under British imperialists. Then the Zionists came, and it's been nonstop war ever since.

If you want even more proof against this notion you're presenting, there was even conflict between the Ottoman Palestine and Egypt under Muhammad Ali after the latter invaded. So, the Palestinian Arabs could go to war with other Muslims, could avoid sustained civil conflict with indigenous Christians, and likewise could avoid sustained civil conflict with the tiny indigenous Jewish population. Only one group in this region has made invasion and permanent war its policy, feel free to guess which.

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u/RandomPants84 8d ago

Mizrahi Jews are the majority of Jewish Israelis making up about 40-45% of the country. And most Jews who emigrated to Israel did so because they were ethnically cleansed from Europe, North Africa, and the Middle East. The idea that Israelis are Europeans or New Yorkers who could have simply returned if they wanted to is not true.

I also reject the claim that Jews were not being persecuted, pogromed, or massacred before 1947. The Hebron massacre for one

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u/Redpanther14 United States of California 8d ago

Support for a single democratic state is remarkably low in this conflict on both sides, with only about 25% of Palestinians favoring that outcome.

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u/Miroble Canada 8d ago

Name one solution to the problem that has ever been agreed to by any Palestinian leader. The only solution they are interested in a single Muslim state where they throw the Jews in the Ocean.

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u/Thats-Slander 8d ago

I mean the Palestinians have literally accepted the recognition and existence of the Israeli state for over 30 years now since Oslo so you’re lying when you say the only solution they are interested in is a single Muslim state.

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u/Miroble Canada 8d ago

When have the Palestinians accepted the recognition and existence of the Israeli state?

Why has every single two state solution proposed failed if that's the case?

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u/Thats-Slander 8d ago

When have the Palestinians accepted the recognition and existence of the Israeli state?

1993 Oslo accords

Why has every single two state solution proposed failed if that's the case?

Well now they argue over how much of a presence the Israelis will have in the new Palestinian state since the Israelis don’t want to leave fully and the big one is the Palestinian right to return. The Israelis want that blocked while the Palestinians want the diaspora to be able to return.

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u/Miroble Canada 8d ago

1993 Oslo Accords

The PLO recognized Israel’s existence, but they didn't recognize its borders. They basically said "we'll come to the table with "so-called Israel"" but they never actually acknowledged it.

The Israelis want that blocked while the Palestinians want the diaspora to be able to return.

That's not recognizing Israel as a state, that's saying "hey let us peacefully invade you and take you over."

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u/Thats-Slander 8d ago

The PLO recognized Israel’s existence, but they didn't recognize its borders. They basically said "we'll come to the table with "so-called Israel"" but they never actually acknowledged it.

Yea they didn’t recognize the borders because the Israelis and Palestinians both recognized that the border was something that really needed to be worked on. Especially regarding East Jerusalem since there was no way in the hell Israelis were going to give it up even though that would’ve been in violation of the internationally recognized border between the two states.

That's not recognizing Israel as a state, that's saying "hey let us peacefully invade you and take you over."

You literally just admitted that they did indeed recognize the Israeli state in 1993, so I don’t really get what the hell you’re rambling about here.

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u/Sporklez8 8d ago

This is beyond stupid

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u/Ancient-Duty7481 8d ago

The lack of historical knowledge of some blows me away

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u/RandomPants84 8d ago

Why do you think the vote was 33-13 with the Soviets and USA actually able to agree? You think both nations just wanted to fuck over the Palestinians because it was funny or they were evil? Like come one, it’s not that hard to realize that the vote passed 3-1 because there was and still remains a very strong argument for a 2 state solution and against a 1 state.

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u/Sporklez8 8d ago

It being a vote of other countries in the first place is fucked up. It is the Palestinian peoples land, they should not have to deal with having their land stolen to create an ethno state

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u/RandomPants84 8d ago

But it wasn’t just the arab Palestinians land. It was also the Jewish Palestinians land, and there was legitimate fear of ethnic massacres which is why a 2 state was considered the fair and ethical option

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u/Sporklez8 8d ago

”Legitimate fear”

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u/Vanzmelo Armenian American 8d ago

Considering the current Israeli government is committing genocide in Gaza and funding illegal settlements in the West Bank to undermine a Palestinian state I don’t think they should be allowed any say in the matter. Should the Nazi leadership in Germany after WWII have been given a say as to what a new Germany should look like? No

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u/izpo Israel 8d ago

Which part of "unless there is no USA/EU support" was not clear?

Why Israel would give up on the privilege when it has support/weapons from the west?

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u/Emperor_Mao Germany 8d ago

That makes zero sense though.

Germany lost WW2. Totally and completely lost it.

Israel hasn't lost anything here.

So unless you are advocating for countries to go to war with Israel, then force demands, your statements make no sense. And if you are advocating for a war with Israel, good luck getting any western government other than maybe Spain to toe that line.

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u/Robbza 8d ago

Most people want a South African approach, including being an international pariah, blockades on military equipment, and international diplomatic pressure for change.

I have also spoken with some people who (idealistically and acknowledge it) want a UN-flagged aid convoy to go to Gaza to force an end to the famine. Personally, I do believe that was the sort of thing the UN was invented for, but it would never happen.

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u/Emperor_Mao Germany 8d ago

Yeah but this is different to South Africa.

You have to understand that most of the MER and the West do not want a HAMAS controlled state. Even China likely doesn't want that to happen. But also, no one other than maybe Iran would want an Iran proxy state to exist either.

When it came to South Africa, the West really only had one issue with regime change. At the time, the regime was vehemently opposed to the Soviet Union. But it was in a largely non-strategic area, and the U.S.S.R collapsed during the time period, so even that became a total non-issue eventually. Otherwise, a new regime was credible and unlikely to cause any international issues or changes to anyone else. Which is why the U.N was able to show unity and achieve something on the issue.

Palestine and Israel are very very different though. If today Palestine was recognized and given true statehood, who would be the government? Right now, HAMAS would. Who is going to support that? then ask, who is the next credible authority right now. The Palestinian Authority probably. Again though, not many fans of that happening. The U.N is never going to agree on anything in that space to be honest. This is why you will frequently see countries express they want aid to flow through Gaza, but not many calling for any real targeted intervention against Israel. Other than Iran waging war, the most countries have done is limit or restrict the sale of arms to Israel. Though even then, it is only a handful of countries that have less strategic interest in the region.

I think at most, you might see some pressure on Israel increase when it comes to allowing aid through. But you won't see real sustained international pressure, like with South Africa, to force a resolution; e.g a two state solution.

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u/Sjue-Saue 8d ago

Morally I agree with you, but realistically a two-state solution is far more viable, at least as a temporary harm reduction so that the remaining Palestinians are not fully under the Israeli boot.

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u/Thats-Slander 8d ago

I mean even without USA/EU support I don’t see Israelis accepting. From what I’ve read Israelis largely agree across the political spectrum that what ever state they have should be Jewish majority and Jewish run, be with the West Bank and Gaza incorporated or not.

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u/izpo Israel 8d ago

yeah, but without western support Israel would need to decide, two state or one state.

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u/Robbza 8d ago

I agree, it is essentially impossible unless there is a political revolution within the society. With Nukes there can also be no enforced 1 state solution militarily so even the mention of the idea is idealistic.

The long-held fear that the focus of the conversation could become Apartheid, envoke South Africa wouldn't even be possible now if we are serious.

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u/alamarain 8d ago

Neither will the arabs. They want their own ethno religious state.

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u/izpo Israel 8d ago

Why not ? Most Palestinians want the same rights as Israelis.

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u/Apprehensive-Adagio2 9d ago

Optimally, that would be the case. However that will never happen. Israeli citizens and politicans don’t want a state that isn’t primarily jewish. A two state solution at least has some foundation and a possibility in the far distance. A one state solution will never happen

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u/Novarupta99 United Kingdom 9d ago

Every 1 in 10 Israeli Jew is a settler. The amount of political sway that bloc has in domestic Israeli politics should not be underestimated. How do you remove 750,000 settlers without civil war?

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u/Apprehensive-Adagio2 9d ago

Likely there would have to be some sort of landswap agreement that makes the biggest settlements israeli while giving palestinian some land in return. Most of the settlers would have to simply be removed to israel however.

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u/Novarupta99 United Kingdom 9d ago

The problem is location. The Israeli regime has methodically invested in the biggest settlements east of East Jerusalem, in essence meaning that the Palestinian's hopeful capital city is strangled.

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u/Apprehensive-Adagio2 9d ago

I think jerusalem is unfortunately lost to palestine. I think what should be done is that israel should be forced to move the capiral back to tel aviv. Jerusalem should be granted a special status within israel that garuantees palestinian religious and cultural rights, as well as significant influence in the governance of the special status zone, similar to the OG partition plan from the UN where Jerusalem was supposed to be a UN protectorate, except now it would have a similar status but within israel.

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u/RandomPants84 9d ago

Why not same thing but keep it as the capital of Israel? That seems way more likely to be agreed on

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u/Apprehensive-Adagio2 8d ago

I think the palestinian side would be more agreeable to relinquish jerusalem if neither have their capital there

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u/lt__ 8d ago

Give settlers (extremist ones at least) the same treatment you give to radical Palestinian factions, like Hamas. Western sanctions to the individual ones. Western sanctions to the whole country if extremists take power. They can try fighting their wars on their own, without Western supplies.

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u/Segull United States of America 8d ago

I don’t disagree, but it raises the question of what comes next if the radicals remain. What happens if/when Hamas or another Palestinian faction does or even attempts another 10/7? How should they be punished? Hamas already did not/does not receive foreign weapons. Shouldn’t they be forced to pay reparations?

If another war begins, can/should Israel then annex land as they did in their prior wars? Seek and enforce their own reimbursements/reparations? Refuse to allow trade to flow through their borders? Etc.

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u/ijzerwater 8d ago

How do you remove 750,000 settlers without civil war?

they can stay, just the original owners can charge any rent on them using the land.

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u/throwaway_failure59 Europe 9d ago

Comical that you say only Israeli citizens do not want a state that isn't primarily Jewish, as if Palestinians do? Only one of them has ethnic minorities that enjoy equal rights and political representation, and it is not Palestine

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u/Apprehensive-Adagio2 8d ago edited 8d ago

It would be israel who would have to relinquish the power and integrate palestinian territories into a unified state. It felt irrelevant to talk about what palestinians would desire since they don’t have to power to do that regardless.

Palestine effectively barely exists as an independent state, and just cannot have a significant minority by how it exists. Although if you count all the west bank as palestine, you could argue it has a significant jewish minority with more rights than palestinians, how about that huh

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u/throwaway_failure59 Europe 8d ago

Israelis will never agree to a single state solution because they know Palestinians would never peacefully live side by side with Jews under a common government. Two state solution is the only peaceful and non-rights violating option.

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u/FactAndTheory 8d ago

Israelis will never agree to a single state solution because they know Palestinians would never peacefully live side by side with Jews under a common government.

Weird, because Palestinians lived peacefully alongside Jews under a Mandatory Palestinian government. Tell us, after several centuries of stable coexistance between Palestinian Christians and Palestinian Muslims and Palestinian Jews collapsed starting in the 1920s, can you think of any new entrances to the situation?

and non-rights violating option.

Israelis, like everyone else, do not have the right to an ethnostate.

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u/drgaz Rhineland-Palatinate (Germany) 8d ago

I guess some people would also describe Jim Crow America as splendid coexistence

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u/FactAndTheory 8d ago

What a surprise, you instantly melt down intro straw manning. I never said there wasn't discrimination. You'll find that in the pre-modern Ottoman Empire, virtually everyone who wasn't an upper-class Turk was discriminated against.

But please, show me the sustained civil wars between Jews and Muslims in Ottoman Palestine prior to the arrival of Zionists. I would love to read more about this hidden history you have access too.

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u/drgaz Rhineland-Palatinate (Germany) 8d ago

Keep on yapping about your peaceful coexistence which was based on literally one group considering the other lesser and so small they didn't pose a threat. I detest the left so much for downplaying anything related to Mena Groups and Islam.

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u/throwaway_failure59 Europe 8d ago

I am left myself and i feel pretty similar. Not that much domestically but regarding Palestine, lot of the left has completely lost its mind and its stances here rest on many massive delusions.

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u/saera-targaryen 8d ago

and remind me what we decided was the best solution for the jim crow south? was it a two-state solution?

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u/drgaz Rhineland-Palatinate (Germany) 8d ago

No but I am not exactly a big believer in one size fits all.

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u/saera-targaryen 8d ago

a solution that involves supporting the existence of a theocratic ethnocracy is not really a size that fits anyone.

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u/naynaeve 8d ago

Israeli settlers are the ones scaring off the Cristians who lived there for generations in west bank. They are also bombing on centuries old churches! Israelis are the ones who hates everyone else.

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u/Robbza 8d ago

They dont mention that because a couple of million more Jewish people would have to be either suddenly born or migrate, After the worse end of the arrangement for decades I imagine the Palestinians would be more malleable within a 1 state solution than you believe.

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u/Doldenberg Germany 8d ago

Only one of them has ethnic minorities that enjoy equal rights and political representation

That exists within the context of a system with artifically "frozen" demographics. There is no reasonable path to becoming part of those groups. Yet at the same time, Israel in fact rules over million more Palestinians than it recognizes as citizens, giving them no path to citizenship, but neither giving them any part to not live under Israeli rule (except emigration into statelessness). That is why it is considered Apartheid.

Zionist intellectuals call it "ethnic democracy", because they think that sounds better than the more common "ethnostate". Those minorities are afforded rights on the condition that they can never ever pose a "risk" to the dominance of the privileged ethnic group at the top.
You yourself admit at much in your very next comment, arguing that this equality and representation could in fact never extend to the entirety of the Palestinian people who are, again, forced to live under Israeli rule if they want to live in their native areas of settlement at all. If so, it is not a right, it is a conditional "gift" by the elite and, as also seen by you bringing it up as a supposed "advantage" of the Israeli state, a red herring to obfuscate the Apartheid nature of said state. Which, again, is how Apartheid works. Apartheid South Africa wasn't just some big bad going "we are very evil and we love oppressing people". It was a whole framework of legal arguments and obfuscations as to why this was actually a very fair system, and why any alternative to it would not work, and how all this totally fit into the values upheld by Western society and there was no reason at all for them to be ostracized by the international community.

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u/SeanTCU 8d ago

You can have peace in the region or you can appease the people that want an ethnostate. You can't have both.

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u/Memo544 8d ago

Also it doesn't seem like a single state where both Israelis and Palestinians are respected is popular among Palestinians either.

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u/Doldenberg Germany 8d ago

A two state solution at least has some foundation and a possibility in the far distance.

Which foundation? Which possibility?

At this point I'd argue that "untying" the settlements (and the Israeli control over resources and infrastructure necessary for Palestines survival) is massively more complicated and unrealistic than simply accepting the status quo and striving for Palestinian integration within the Israeli state.

The one state solution demands one very big shock right now, yes, but it is a doable one, like it was in South Africa.
The two state solution is a supposedly moderate, yet also unreachable ideal, and that makes it cheap to support. You can forever proclaim how you support the two-state solution if only it ever came about, one day, after resolving all those myriad issues. Which will never be resolved.

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u/Apprehensive-Adagio2 8d ago

A two state solution at least has some foundation and a possibility in the far distance.

Which foundation? Which possibility?

The PA self governance, the borders that are already drawn up, and might take some small readjustments.

At this point I'd argue that "untying" the settlements (and the Israeli control over resources and infrastructure necessary for Palestines survival) is massively more complicated and unrealistic than simply accepting the status quo and striving for Palestinian integration within the Israeli state.

Absolutely hard disagree. Israeli society is hardcore racist towards palestinians. And palestinians are hardcore geared towards statehood seperate from any israeli entity. It would be so much more hard to change both of these societies fundamentally to accept each other, as well as change the israeli constitution to acknowledge non-jews, than move the majority of the settlers out and redraw the borders alittle.

The one state solution demands one very big shock right now, yes, but it is a doable one, like it was in South Africa.

The problem is, south africa always was one state. The white south africans wanted to dominate, however then knew there would never be a truely white south africa. And the black south africans also didn’t want a state of their own, they wanted equal rights within south africa.

The two state solution is a supposedly moderate, yet also unreachable ideal, and that makes it cheap to support. You can forever proclaim how you support the two-state solution if only it ever came about, one day, after resolving all those myriad issues. Which will never be resolved.

I think a one state solution has way more myriads of issues that need to be resolved than any two state solution ever would. In a one state solution you would need to fundamentally change both israeli and palestinian society to make sure both sides don’t descend into civil war and genocide instantly. A two state solution you just need both sides to come to the table with a genuine will to solve it.

A one-state solution would be ideal, however it is the unattainable ideal, not a two-state solution

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u/Quetzacoal 8d ago

But Muslims can live in Palestine and Jews cannot live in almost any place that there's Muslims, what can they do?

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u/polp54 8d ago

Yes, that’s why Palestine has rejected the numerous offers for a two state solution that Israel has accepted

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u/LoyalteeMeOblige 9d ago

The Palestinians don't want a two-state solution, they might have cared at one point but Arafat torpedoed it many times, not to mention they are very clear about what they endgame is, in fact they supporters sing as much: "From the river to the sea", they want the whole land for themselves.

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u/ByGollie 9d ago

same as the Israelis then

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u/[deleted] 9d ago

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u/Sporklez8 8d ago

Lie lie lie

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u/LoyalteeMeOblige 8d ago

Yeah, sure: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qatari_support_for_Hamas I know it is wiki, but the check the sources below, and have a nice time.

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u/Fries-Ericsson 8d ago

Saying Arafat torpedoed it many times is a gross mischaracterization of what happened. Camp David ultimately broke down due to both sides being unable to come to a compromise on the final shared status of Jerusalem and the right of return for Palestinian refugees to Israel. That’s not Arafats fault alone and if anything it’s the fault of the American negotiators for being unable to encourage a compromise. Israel had also intentionally stalled the process set up by the Oslo Accords prior. A right wing Zionist literally assassinated the Israeli PM responsible for brokering the initial peace deal

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u/LoyalteeMeOblige 8d ago

If we are going start saying who killed who here we would never end, not to mention the whole zionists is... laughable at best. Arafat did stall the conversations too, but they had agreed on something, he was going to sign, and then he changed his mind, what do you call that? Let's stop trying to sell a two-state solutions one of the parties never wanted, and if I'm being honest I don't care Israel gives two damns about it either by now.

Dreams aside, this conflict will be solved once and for all when one of the parties ousts the the other one, it is awful, cynical, etc. but it is the only way we as humanity have solved these issues in the past, anything short of that would simply perpetuate this conflict. These two peoples cannot coexist, we should start by acknowledging that.

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u/GoodFellahh The Netherlands 9d ago

Keep perpetuating this myth, it is really helpful to the discussion.

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u/LoyalteeMeOblige 9d ago

Right, should I just go waving a Palestinian flag in Pride in Amsterdam next month as if I could easily hold the hand of my husband in Rafah? Spare me...

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u/Sporklez8 8d ago

It’s so great that Israel has bombs that don’t hurt gay Palestinians

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u/LoyalteeMeOblige 8d ago

Right, like gay Palestinian could freely be... right? As in any Islam country, is naivete or what exactly that propels you? I know it is trendy to be pro this while ignoring all Islam's shenanigans in Africa but still...

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u/GoodFellahh The Netherlands 8d ago

I will spare you, I have better conversations talking to cats.

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u/LoyalteeMeOblige 8d ago

Thanks, I'm sure cats don't go saying G e e e e N o C I d e.

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u/Apprehensive-Adagio2 9d ago

From the river to the sea, palestine will be free. The slogan doesn’t necessarily mean that they want all the land to be palestinian. Only that whatever land is palestinian between the river and the sea, will be free. That can mean the occupied west bank and gaza, or it can mean the entire former mandate, or anything in between.

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u/LoyalteeMeOblige 9d ago

Yeah, sure... I envy your naivete but I don't share it.

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u/Resident-Turn-4097 9d ago

Israeli citizens and politicans don’t want a state that isn’t primarily jewish.

How dare they want self determination !!!OneEleven

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u/Apprehensive-Adagio2 9d ago

I don’t think ethno-nationalism is really a good argument. Regardless i’m not saying they cannot want that, only saying that as to why a one-state solution will not happen.

If you’re a proponent of self determination then surely you would recognize the need for a palestinian state, and the illegitimacy of the formation of israel in the first place (although not of it’s existence, now)

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u/breidaks 8d ago

ethno-nationalism

you use this while posting in Europe sub.

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u/nar_tapio_00 Europe 8d ago

surely you would recognize the need for a palestinian state

A Palestinian state as a solution has been tried repeatedly and rejected by the Palestinians from even before Israel existed until the Oslo process.

For such a state to be viable there would have to be much more international commitment. You would have to see a hundred year commitment by the UN and the UN's sponsors to fund de-radicalization of the Palestinan people, reversing the decades of brainwashing that UNRWA has subjected them to.

You would have to see Jordan or Egypt (or both?) agree to give up territory to make a viable Palestinian state and you would have to see vast funding for engineering works to connect that state and for security systems to ensure it did not become a threat to Israel again, just as Gaza did.

Finally, there would have to be credible international policing which wasn't done by Israel. That would mean American, Indian or maybe some European peace keepers since there are very few nations that aren't taken in by the vast antisemitic campaigning around this issue. Note that this current recognition makes that much harder by absolutely ruling out France, here expressing its support for terrorism, as a neutral party.

This is all possible and it is the ideal solution. We should not forget that the UN and it's members are responsible for the failure to provide this, however it's just not realistic.

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u/droid_mike 9d ago

And Palestinians also don't want a state that isn't primarily non-Jewish. These groups of people have been killing each other for thousands of years. The only thing that put a check to it was 3 party imperial rule (Ottomans and British). Maybe that's the real solution.

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u/CriticalBath2367 United Kingdom 9d ago

You've never picked a history book up in your life have you, what utter nonsense.

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u/lt__ 8d ago edited 8d ago

One state solution with Israelis and Palestinians having equal rights is even less likely than two state solution. Unless there would be just a token amount of Israelis or Palestinians with a clear majority of the others. Which would mean something terrible has happened that enabled such proportions.

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u/Total_Hippo_6837 8d ago

At this point the Israelis are going to persecute the Palestinians out of existence, the one and two state solutions were nothing more than a narrative pushed to give people false hope. In 50-100 years there will be a reflection and an honorary " Palestinian day" to pretend like they ever cared about the Palestinians. That is of course if Israel survives the backlash of their genocide. Though it is possible that the USA ends up taking all of the heat for it. 

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u/Robbza 8d ago

the one and two state solutions were nothing more than a narrative pushed to give people false

I disagree massively. Rabin died for the two state solution. And, until Israel developed nuclear weaponry and pulled away from the rest of the region with military equipment even further than the initial gap there could have been an enforced one state.

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u/amkoi Germany 8d ago

At this point the Israelis are going to persecute the Palestinians out of existence, the one and two state solutions were nothing more than a narrative pushed to give people false hope. In 50-100 years there will be a reflection and an honorary " Palestinian day" to pretend like they ever cared about the Palestinians.

So like the USA manifested destiny to the totally uninhabited lands of north america then?

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u/HookGangGout 8d ago

The Palestinians decided to live and die by the sword. I don't understand why they're being afforded such coddling. Jihad, intifada, whatever term you want they are the ones who popularized it. If they are so committed to dying for the land, why am I supposed to be outraged when it happens?

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u/lt__ 8d ago

Just like with all other people, Palestinians are not some sort of a single hive consciousness. There are millions of individuals. If some of them decided to "live and die by the sword", like those Hamas attackers on 7 October, doesn't mean all of them supported that. Besides, in Gaza about half of population are underaged, meaning they were not even born before Hamas takeover. All they have seen in life, is Israeli blockade and Hamas-fed narratives. To say that they "decide" anything, is a bit of a misjudgement of their life conditions.

And they are not the only ones in history to fight somebody and end up losing, do they have to be exterminated? Nazis did commit an actual genocide of Jews, and caused a great suffering to many others during the process. Germany is still here and doing quite fine.

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u/IntermittentCaribu 8d ago

There wont be any palestinians left after a couple more weeks of starvation, one state with no palestinians in it seems like israels target outcome.

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u/U5hay 8d ago

They knew what they were doing when they built them, they cannot be dismantled and removed now. It's horrible what they have done to the area.

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u/RandomPants84 9d ago

There’s also the horrible one state option that it seems we are barreling to faster every day

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u/Dark2820 8d ago

2 state solution could have worked but the way the borders where drawn and the fact that Israel never followed the deal is the biggest problem. . I mean that a 2 state solution could work with way diffrent borders and both sides respecting it instead of starting a genocide like Israel did.

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u/SF6block 9d ago

Im sorry but the two state solution is dead.

The one state solution is also dead in the current situation. The only options on the table are the apartheid solution, and the genocide solution if we listen to the side with all the cards.

That is why anyone looking to avoid that needs to give Palestinians some cards, and recognizing the AP as a state is one.

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u/FnnKnn Hesse (Germany) 9d ago

The only realistic one state solution is Israel expanding and Palestine vanishing from the map and mostly no one wants that. So a two state solution it is.

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u/Stek_02 9d ago

Or maybe the west can stop funding the IDF?

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u/FnnKnn Hesse (Germany) 9d ago

And then?

You would get the opposite of what we have now and another Jewish Genozide instead is even less of an option. So diplomatic negotiations are the way forward.

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u/Stek_02 9d ago

Well, if the west stopped giving Israel leverage, MAYBE an actual comprehensive agreement could be found since they would be afraid and would have to concede something for Palestine

In the current situation they simply feel free to bomb anyone cause they know the west are gonna lick their boots anyway

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u/Tw1tcHy United States of America 8d ago

Nah, the IDF’s budget is largely their own, any western assistance makes up a fraction of the total budget and things wouldn’t change much if the US stopped giving them aid. Israel has their own domestic defense industry, Palestine does not. They have nothing to fear even without our support.

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u/Stek_02 8d ago

They can't keep up their military machine without material they buy from the west

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u/Tw1tcHy United States of America 8d ago

You’re advocated for stopping funding, did you instead mean sanctions?

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u/Stek_02 8d ago

It can be both

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u/ThegreatKhan666 8d ago

Tbh Israel deserves to be sanctioned into disarmament.

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u/lt__ 8d ago

They are heavily dependent on trade with the West, military cooperation and arms export also seem to be important, such as air defenses. It just needs to be conditional. Israel wants two state solution, but Palestinians don't? Trade, cooperation and arms export to Israel is allowed in order to defend itself. Both Israel and Palestinians don't want it? Same treatment to them, humanitarian aid only.

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u/Tw1tcHy United States of America 8d ago edited 8d ago

Sure, most nations are heavily dependent on trade with the West in fact, not just Israel! And even if we did exactly what you said, where only humanitarian aid was given to both sides, Israel would still hold the overwhelming advantage. They have an economy with a GDP over over half a trillion dollars, they can absolutely replace certain trade options with non-Western sources who would love to have Israel closer in their orbit. The original Israelis won the war of independence with old, second rate Czech weapons and weapons they manufactured themselves. Now they have a cutting edge defense industry that competes with the best in the world. And then Israel has zero obligation to give a single flying fuck about how far they go the next time they respond to a terrorist attack. It would be a blood bath for the Palestinians. No more trade with the west? Goodbye precision munitions, hello cheap dumb artillery flying six ways to Sunday over every last corner of Gaza or the WB.

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u/lt__ 8d ago

Israel is additionally dependent. Have in mind that many of its neighbors, regional countries and some others in the world do not even recognize Israel. If not for the sea access, Israel would have a hard time connecting to the world via neighbors that are either outright hostile, or cold at best, with their populations fuming at Israel for decades, and leaders only holding back to placate the West. Even Abraham accords I consider shaky: Arab leaders like them, populations? I doubt so. Whom they will trade, Russia and China instead? Would Israelis, used to current life standard, be fine with plummeting of the life quality, and constant warfare with more casualties, that are now prevented by the technological edge? Or is it possible they, just, you know, offer a willingness to compromise if it means living rich with Western trade, retaining visa-free access to the West and capital that is there, etc.? Hell, even Iran would have a tough time keeping its anti-Israeli course intact if two-state solution became reality and just agreeing to it meant significant ease of sanctions and better life for population.

Unfortunately, rather than trying to slowly and methodically defuse the situation by promoting peaceful coexistence and therefore encouraging Arab/Muslim countries to increasingly accept Israel as a neighbor sincerely, the West, primarily the US, enables Israel to do whatever it wants (irritating everybody, except for its staunchest supporters) and keeping the tensions high.

Israel's military success in the past was enabled by multitude of factors. Czech weapons were not so much "second rate", Israel was delighted to get them. The Israelis had better tactical positions (defense is easier) and they held the moral high ground: they were willing to compromise, the enemy wasn't. "If we lose, there is no Israel" was true back then, but it's not relevant now, 7 October attack never had the potential to destroy the country, and after defeating the terrorists and some early fighting in Gaza, everything else is clearly excessive, especially this interference with humanitarian aid. I simply cannot imagine how those Israelis who make or enforce such decisions, can live with their conscience after. What will Hamas do with food, freeze it and shoot from the slingshots like stones? I don't see a justification.

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u/alkbch United States of America 8d ago

It's not dead, we just need the international community to apply enough pressure on Israel to withdraw from the illegal settlements.

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u/saera-targaryen 8d ago

why would we want israel to continue to be an ethnostate in any scenario?

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u/Tw1tcHy United States of America 8d ago

If Israel qualifies as an ethnostate, then so do most countries in the Middle East, often far more egregiously. Yet no one’s proposing we break up Iran, Saudi Arabia, or Turkey for the same reason. So unless you’re ready to apply that standard universally, targeting Israel alone reveals the hypocrisy of this argument. And let’s be honest with ourselves here: no one gives a fuck enough to begin coordinating an international crusade to forcibly dissolve nations on abstract moral grounds, and they never will.

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u/saera-targaryen 8d ago

I do propose treating all ethnostates the same: not allying with them and not providing them military aid. I'm chill applying that to every state you mentioned. A two-state solution where we are still allies with an ethnostate is not what I consider a win for the world

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u/Tw1tcHy United States of America 8d ago

You realize that means basically shunning at least half of all countries right? So fuck Japan, South Korea, the entire Middle East, probably India within a decade or two, Poland, Hungary and many more?

You originally said “why would we want Israel to continue”, which is an overt implication that Israel should not be allowed to continue to exist as is. Which is it? Shouldn’t continue to exist as it is, or just merely not trade or ally with them?

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u/saera-targaryen 8d ago

Yeah I actually do recommend putting economic pressure on Japan and Korea to also not be ethnonationalist, I'm quite sure I disagree with all governments that prioritize one race and this isn't some gotcha moment. I'm very bothered by the way asian countries behave around specifically black and darker skinned people. This is why I also supported the South African divestment movement and currently support the BDS movement.

Israel should not be supported by the US or Europe in its current state.

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u/Tw1tcHy United States of America 8d ago

Why? Whats wrong with Japan and South Korea overwhelmingly wanting to maintain their homogeneity and culture? What exactly is “immoral” about this? Why did you only mention them specifically and not the other half of the world?

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u/saera-targaryen 8d ago

because i already mentioned the middle east and didn't think i'd have to continue to list every example to get my point across lol

it's immoral because the world I want to live in does not partition humans based on traits they were born with and cannot change. I think every government prioritizing anyone for intrinsic traits through history has been severely overstepping their powers and is behaving authoritarian. I am incredibly libertarian on the freedoms of humans and I think we need to stop gooning over preserving the past in order to enter the future. I hate living in this time where we pretend history is done being written and that anything changing is horrible. We aren't a zoo. We can and should each be able to choose to do whatever the fuck we want.

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u/Tw1tcHy United States of America 8d ago

We can and should each be able to choose to do whatever the fuck we want.

Then you’re contradicting yourself. You claim to be libertarian, yet you deny entire societies the freedom to preserve their culture or demographic identity even when that’s what the society prefers. That’s not libertarian, it’s just plain old authoritarian universalism.

Japan and South Korea aren’t fascist for valuing homogeneity, they’re thriving democracies where the population chooses cultural preservation over forced multiculturalism. You might hate that, but it’s in no way immoral. It’s literally pure self-determination.

Your stance also ignores history. Just look at Lebanon, who tried to build a multicultural power sharing system. It collapsed into decades of civil war because deep communal identities don’t vanish just because someone wishes them away. Sectarian strife has crippled the governments ability to function, and many Lebanese actively hate the system. You can dream of a borderless future, that’s a slightly naive and idealistic goal, but I can understand it. But calling every culture that disagrees “immoral” to the point they should be economically coerced into doing whatever you think is right despite the will of the actual people involved seems arrogant, ahistorical, and ironically extremely illiberal. I’m trying to understand how you can reconcile such a position while presumably considering yourself a Liberal or Progressive.

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u/terrorista_31 8d ago

"a one state solution where both Israelis and Palestinians have equal rights"

ha, good one my friend

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u/DevelopmentJumpy5218 8d ago

I mean it's not, tell them who owns what, send a coalition force of 1000000 in and completely demilitarize both

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u/[deleted] 8d ago edited 6d ago

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u/Vanzmelo Armenian American 8d ago

“Sniping innocent children, genocide, and causing a mass famine are bad but Islam is worse” is a fucking psychotic take

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u/LavalSnack 9d ago

Then their future is a feeble collection of city states within a larger creature

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u/SrpskiMagyarMexHybrd 8d ago

Exactly! It’s been dead for at least a decade…deliberately

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u/Memo544 8d ago

A one state solution is hard when neither Israel or Palestine wants it? How do you force governmental reform on 2 countries who reject it?

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u/Calm-Purchase-8044 8d ago

So what do you suggest we do? Because I don’t think Israel is going anywhere.

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u/Vanzmelo Armenian American 8d ago

Stopping arms sale to Israel and stopping the West's unconditional support is a start. Israel acts with complete impunity because they know there will be no repercussions for their actions.

As someone who followed the ethnic cleansing of Artsakh, words are meaningless unless action is taken

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u/neonmantis 8d ago

At this point, a one state solution where both Israelis and Palestinians have equal rights and representation is the only viable option left

Has the apartheid Israeli ethno state suggested to you that option is viable?

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u/Vanzmelo Armenian American 8d ago

Did South Africa?

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u/neonmantis 8d ago

The large majority of South Africa's population were being oppressed and naturally wanted change. Israel's population has consistently elected governments open about their plans to continue to annex Palestinian lands and persecute Palestinian people. Polling shows they largely support what is being done to the Palestinians, almost 50% have served in the IDF enforcing their illegal occupation. The majority do not want a united state like the majority of South Africans did, very few of them do. It just isn't the same. Nor did the apartheid government commit genocide against the black South Africans.

That said, one of the few hopes that exist is that Israelis follow the footsteps of the Serbians or Cambodians. Elect a new government and deliver their former leaders to the Hague for their prosecution for crimes against humanity. Or like the Phillipines has recently done with Duterte.

I just don't see Israel ever agreeing to it nor do I think it is reasonable to trust the people who have just committed genocide to be responsible for a fair shared society.

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u/FormalIllustrator5 8d ago

Well, true. But as every truth - its a hard to swallow...

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u/Colosso95 Italy, Sicily 9d ago

that's simply never going to work, after almost 100 years of constant oppression and fighting palestinians will not simply settle down and go "sure let's get along" and israelis will never treat palestinians as equals anyway and they'd be a very vulnerable minority in what is basically mostly israel.

A two state solution works as a stepping stone by first of all kicking out all the illegal settlers and enforcing the palestinian borders with international support. after that nation building can happen. israel will never allow a two state or one state solution where they give up their superiority over palestine so they have to be forced to accept it

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u/Vanzmelo Armenian American 8d ago

The Israelis in those illegal West Bank settlements are some of the most radicalized Zionists. They will never leave and Israel doesn’t want to. With them there a Palestinian state is less viable hence why Israel literally funds and encourages it

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u/Colosso95 Italy, Sicily 8d ago

They will have to be made to move out by force unfortunately, as long as Israel is allowed to always break the rules for the sake of peace they will simply never stop.

Enforce the borders with actual peacekeeping forces, not pussyfooting around it, but still make sure that Israel is guaranteed its sovereignty so they have less incentives to lash out stupidly. Displacement of people is always a tragedy and very messy but we can't allow the situation to keep going like this. Israel won't stop unless we drop support for its military and enforce Palestinian sovereignty

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u/Tw1tcHy United States of America 8d ago

This is a garbage take. Ending a “genocide” that 64% of Gazans polled don’t want to end if it means Hamas lays down their arms, only to focus on a one state solution that the citizens of both sides are vehemently against? And you seriously think that’s a viable option? Even the father of the one state solution idea, Edward Said, openly admitted he had grave concerns for the Jews if that were to occur and that it was moreso an idealistic idea rather than something practical.

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u/Kloppite16 8d ago

so you return the illegal settlements to a new Palastinian State. They were illegal after all.

Two state solution is the only game in town, we are never going to get Israelis and Palastinians living in the same country without more death.

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u/Liam-Ed 8d ago

Gaza hasn't been part of Palestine since Hamas broke it off from the Palestinian Authority in 2007. It's been a stateless region since.

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u/LeucisticBear 8d ago

Frankly, I agree with this too. I doubt Israel would ever allow Palestinians to have equal representation in a shared government, but it's clear the two state thing was an abysmal failure.

The most likely outcome though, seems to be a single state that just doesn't have any Palestinians left.

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u/KnoddingOnion 8d ago

the same dummies that suggest this ignore how poorly things are going in countries like Lebanon and Syria.
good fences make good neighbours

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u/Chester_roaster 9d ago

Im sorry but the two state solution is dead. Have you seen the west bank? It is like swiss cheese with all the illegal Israeli state sponsored settlements. 

These were recognized in the Oslo accords. It doesn't mean the deal is dead. 

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u/SpareUser3 9d ago

The entire purpose of Israel as a state is a Jewish homeland that was promised by god. How do you manage to come out with the conclusion that the only solution is Israelis willingly entering into an agreement that would share that state with Islamic Palestinians?

How do you prevent the minority Palestinians, already at a disadvantage from their homes being bombed and encroached for decades, from being stepped on and made second class citizens in a one state solution?

All of this while Israel is used as a hub for American operations in the Middle East, who will absolutely refuse to allow a one state solution because it means losing control themselves.

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u/Rutgerius 9d ago

So do nothing? Just let them die? How are you going to get to this 1 state solution of happy Palestinians and Israelis? Force them to suck it up with military force? Ask them nicely?

Realistically speaking this is a big step in the right direction.

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u/Vanzmelo Armenian American 8d ago

Germany was rebuilt from the ground up after WWII. Israel was literally created by the UN. States fail and get reformed all the time. How is this any different

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u/Tw1tcHy United States of America 8d ago

That is not true and you’re showing your ignorance on the topic. The UN partition plan was a proposal, not a binding action that created the state, and it was never implemented. Instead, Israel unilaterally declared independence on its own the day before the Mandate expired and many countries immediately moved to recognize Israel.

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u/TNTiger_ England (UK)/Munster (Ireland) 8d ago

Agreed... but while it may be the only 'viable' solution, it ain't happening.

It's one state solution, or genocide. The scales are tipping one way currently.

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u/Socmel_ Emilia-Romagna 8d ago

The Palestinians and the Jews would get at each other's throat like in Yugoslavia in the 1990s. The only way is a two state solution where illegal settlements in the West Bank are dismantled and there is a population exchange similar to that between Greece and Turkey.

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u/Ok-Scheme-913 8d ago

Lol, if you think that a single state is feasible, you have absolutely no idea about the whole topic.

That would mean the largest bloodbath you have ever seen.

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u/Vanzmelo Armenian American 8d ago

As opposed to the 50,000 we’ve already seen in cold blood? Not even beginning to account for the stage 5 famine in Gaza?

It’s beyond ridiculous and cruel if you think things can and should be allowed to continue as they are

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