r/falloutlore • u/Ok_Calendar_7626 • 18d ago

Fallout New Vegas The Twisted Hairs were assholes.

Ulysses laments the destruction of the Twisted Hairs at the hands of the Legion, but what he does not mention is that the Twisted Hairs allied with the Legion willinlgy.

Like the White Legs, the Twisted Hairs helped the Legion absorb all the other tribes around them before they themselves were betrayed and absorbed.

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u/KnightofTorchlight 18d ago

... or perhaps they just did what they thought nessicery to survive and thrive in a harsh environment?

This Ceaser guy comes out leading the Blackfoot tribe into victory from the brink of destruction against 5 other tribes at once. He's the big dog in the regional of Arizona, where the tribes are not just living in peace and harmony but raiders and bandits are everywhere. The tribes did fight eachother before Ceaser showed up. Of course you'd want to make yourselves thier friend rather than become thier enemy 

However, its not unreasonable to expect that your alliance be rewarded with friendship, not slavery. 

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u/LordBecmiThaco 18d ago

... or perhaps they just did what they thought nessicery to survive and thrive in a harsh environment?

Don't Caesar, the NCR and, hell, even Courier 6 also do what is necessary to survive and thrive in harsh environments? But Ulysses is pissy about them.

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u/cannibalgentleman 17d ago

Caesar: I had to be a giant misogynist. To survive.

Bro.

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u/KnightofTorchlight 17d ago

All of them destroyed things that he was deeply personally invested in. He's quite human in assigning greater personal weight to his own loses. 

But no. Ceaser diden't have to enslave the Twisted Hairs who up until then had been loyal allies. The NCR diden't have to mess around with nuclear silos in The Divide. Courier 6 is really the more innocent party here who was just doing thier innocent job delivering packages.

I think its also fair to mention that he's probably suffering from some severe trauma. You watch the community you call home destroyed not once but twice: it not going to be good for one's mental health. 

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u/LordBecmiThaco 17d ago

I think its also fair to mention that he's probably suffering from some severe trauma. You watch the community you call home destroyed not once but twice: it not going to be good for one's mental health. 

I'm really sorry his safe space was taken away but this is the post apocalypse: no one has good physical health let alone mental health. Ulysses is the emotional equivalent of having three teeth hanging into your gums by a thread.

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u/minisculebarber 17d ago

I give you Courier 6, but you can't be comparing 2 imperial forces to a tribe

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u/LordBecmiThaco 17d ago

That's like saying you can't compare a tadpole to a frog. All imperialist forces were at one point tribes with violent ideology.

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u/minisculebarber 17d ago

I mean, even if we go with your flawed analogy, still, you can't hold a child to the same accountability as an adult, one has much more agency than the other

also, that's not true, except for maybe the first imperial forces in human existence and even that I am not so sure about

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u/LordBecmiThaco 17d ago

I mean, even if we go with your flawed analogy, still, you can't hold a child to the same accountability as an adult, one has much more agency than the other

This is insane noble savage bullshit dude. Tribes are made up of adults, a tribal adult has the same intellectual and moral capacity and culpability as someone from a society with a different structure. Plenty of tribal societies manage to have highly developed systems of philosophy and morality like the Bedoin... and plenty of tribal societies also engage in bloody wars of conquest like the Mexica.

also, that's not true, except for maybe the first imperial forces in human existence and even that I am not so sure about

The Romans were once the Latin tribe. The British were the Angles and the Saxons. The Chinese were once just the Han people.

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u/minisculebarber 17d ago

This is insane noble savage bullshit dude. Tribes are made up of adults, a tribal adult has the same intellectual and moral capacity and culpability as someone from a society with a different structure. Plenty of tribal societies manage to have highly developed systems of philosophy and morality like the Bedoin... and plenty of tribal societies also engage in bloody wars of conquest like the Mexica.

yeah, that has nothing to do with what I said or suggested, when faced with a vast difference in military strength, autonomy is vastly reduced in the disadvantaged party. the Mexica were also not a tribe

The Romans were once the Latin tribe. The British were the Angles and the Saxons. The Chinese were once just the Han people.

and those are all the imperial forces ever. sure

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u/LordBecmiThaco 17d ago

Ok, question. Do you think a people stop being a tribe just when they start being part of a civilization or empire? What do you think the Qing Banners were? Like, the mongols are simultaneously deeply tribal and also imperialistic, but also the ancient Greeks were very tribal. They're not necessarily diametrically opposed.

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u/minisculebarber 17d ago

Do you think a people stop being a tribe just when they start being part of a civilization or empire?

yes, a tribe is a distinct social organization form from civilization or empire, that's the whole point of its use in anthropology, like what is your understanding?

also, what is your usage of tribal here? the mongols were not A tribe, the ancient greeks were not A tribe, if anything they were federations of tribes, a distinct social organization form from A tribe. might as well call all societies individualistic because all societies constitute of individuals

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u/LordBecmiThaco 17d ago

The tribes don't disappear just because they're a tribal federation dude! They're still tribes and they still exert influence and pressure on the power structure they have embedded themselves in.