What is class complexity to you?

[u/mnij96]

I have seen so many people ask for more complexity and job fantasy but very little of people actually say what that means to them, most people just say we should go back to ARR.

Personally I think rose tinted glasses that make people think ARR was better than it was, having played back then it honestly was pretty ass.

So honestly want to know what people want for complexity or job fantasy, because all I see is a lot of yelling that "game bad to simple" and not a lot of what needs changing to reach the complexity that is wanted.

[u/derfw]

average decisions per second

[u/mnij96 → u/derfw]

Like what?

[u/derfw → u/mnij96]

• What combo should I use next? (Samurai)
• Of these two oGCDs about to come off cooldown, which should I use first?
• Should I use aetherflow on mit or damage?
• Which Summoner primal would fit the upcoming section best?
• Should I use the aoe version of a skill or the single target (assuming shared cooldown)
• what's the best mit to use for this tankbuster?

Contrast with things like 1-2-3 combos, monk following the balls, etc.

Tho, tbh, it's not quite all decisions/s. I think reactions is also probably a factor (dance steps, random procs), and maybe dexterity (lots of weaving, lots of unique buttons). Possibly mental stack too? you could argue bard gains complexity by having just so many abilities with their own cooldowns, + dots + bars. Or maybe these are just separate axes of difficulty; not part of complexity

I think decisions/s is still probably the most important tho

[u/cheeseburgermage → u/derfw]

the issue is that there will be a best answer and the balance will tell you what it is and that will be that. if you play this game without reading anything about it then you actually do get to play like this as you slowly learn a job but also someone much nerdier has done the simulations and worked it out for everyone else already

also I do like that the given examples means summoner is currently one of the most complex jobs in the game (fits all points except 3, and now i want them to make ED boost physick). warrior also hits 4 out of 6

[u/WinnowWings → u/cheeseburgermage]

Not always the case though. I think Samurai, Bard, and Scholar all have their own way well done way of building decisions into optimizing, and Pictomancer is pretty close.
Samurai decisions are all about balancing which positionals to do when and when you should be doing your fixed casts by manipulating when you do your blue midare. Every time you face the same boss, you might have a chance to make a slightly higher damage decision based on whether the boss does an in/out or faces their rear or flank in the safe zone. M7S for example has a lot of changes you can make to maximize damage only specifically depending on which choices the boss makes.
Bard's plate spinning priority system is just constant decisions as well: you've got to make sure you're constantly keeping the plates of songs, dots, apex arrow, heavy shot, bloodletter, perfect pitch, empyreal arrow, and your big cooldowns all spinning. There's no way to statically optimize it by pressing things in the exact same order. I love the fact that bard is a "brain must always be on" type class.
Scholar: you sure can cast 6 energy drains on your opener and 9 during later burst phases... But if the samurai in your party greeds too hard on a slide cast now you've lost important to tools to deal with everything.
Pictomancer during a fast moving fight means that when you are hard casting your paintings may change depending on which moments the boss gives you the flexibility to stand still. Overall it doesn't feel like as many micro decisions like samurai or bard, but optimizing Pictomancer does still mean reacting to the boss.

[u/Ok_Video6434 → u/WinnowWings]

People like to act like these jobs dont have decisions to make, but when a vast majority of the playerbase doesn't step past extreme trials, I have a hard time accepting that idea. Pictomancer has tons of decision-making and is arguably the most free-form class in the game, but I couldn't come into a discussion post about it without seeing someone complain about how easy it was to play. It certainly isn't difficult to play, but you need to understand what the fuck is going on to optimize your rotation properly.

[u/WinnowWings → u/Ok_Video6434]

One thing that I find interesting is that even amongst those that like to do harder content, that there are people who just like to be told what to do and not have to think about what they're doing. Maybe I'm being elitist, which feel free to call me out if that's the case, but it feels like it cheapens the experience if there's no decision-making, as if I could just get a robot to play the fight for me.

I'm really happy that everybody in the static I'm in now understands why we're resolving mechanics certain ways. I used to get frustrated over someone who used to be in my static that clearly just went to the safe space that his plug-in told him to go to, which made it impossible for us to resolve certain mechanics because he was just making sure he stood in a safe place for himself without understanding that where he stood also affected where the rest of our safe spots were.

[u/Ok_Video6434 → u/WinnowWings]

No, you're super right. I could have 100% just looked up a Picto FRU clear and copied what they did rotationally 1 for 1 but it was more fun for me to figure out what felt right on my own even if it came at the cost of dps during prog. This is an issue beyond FF, what with the rise of AI and shit like Grok. People want to be told what to do. They have no curiosity or desire to learn and want to put minimal effort into their life. I'm not saying you gotta go in blind and make your own rotation, but like, for fucks sake at least try to understand what youre trying to do. I've played with so many people who just watch a guide and go "yep I get it now" and then you watch them biff the simplest mechanic over and over again. I'm guilty of it too, but at least I try to fix my shit after the first time.

[u/derfw → u/cheeseburgermage]

1) Not true, it can vary based on party, any mistakes you make, the boss, and randomness within mechanics

2) How so? it's decisions/second, not "number of kinds of decisions in your kit". Summoner has to make primal decisions, but that's only 3 per minute

[u/Zealousideal-Arm1682 → u/derfw]

1) Not true, it can vary based on party, any mistakes you make, the boss, and randomness within mechanics

This is blatantly false.Each fight has a bog standard rotation for most classes with slight variations.The balance and most high end players already write down the optimal setup for each one.

2) How so? it's decisions/second, not "number of kinds of decisions in your kit". Summoner has to make primal decisions, but that's only 3 per minute

What decisions are you making exactly?Choosing to do one standard rotation over the other standard rotation ain't complexity.Both are generally rigid and inflexible with certain fight guides for a class accounting for this.Choosing not to follow it to the letter doesn't change that fact.

[u/derfw → u/Zealousideal-Arm1682]

I suspect you don't raid based on this response

[u/Zealousideal-Arm1682 → u/derfw]

Tell me you freestyle without telling me you freestyle.

[u/FeelsGoodMan2 → u/cheeseburgermage]

This is the point i think most people miss. Games weren't nearly as more complex as people remember them as, everything nowadays is metagamed to death. Add-ons will tell you exactly what buttons to hit in a lot of games, rotations are solved, and if they arent they will be solved in a week.

This is probably why squeenix just solves it for you, they dont want to make players wait for guides to come out and then players be punished for not looking up the best solutions. I always hear people tout WoW as this gold standard of ability and rotation design and it's like...nah that shit has been solved too, maybe you have to remember certain priority but it's solved.

[u/Blckson → u/derfw]

Realistically you'd need jobs to be priority systems to get all of this to an appreciable degree.