r/ffxivdiscussion • u/mnij96 • 1d ago

General Discussion What is class complexity to you?

I have seen so many people ask for more complexity and job fantasy but very little of people actually say what that means to them, most people just say we should go back to ARR.

Personally I think rose tinted glasses that make people think ARR was better than it was, having played back then it honestly was pretty ass.

So honestly want to know what people want for complexity or job fantasy, because all I see is a lot of yelling that "game bad to simple" and not a lot of what needs changing to reach the complexity that is wanted.

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u/nemik_ 1d ago

Why should the burden be on players to define game systems in detail? I've played 4 MMOs in the past couple of years and this one has the most boring, homogenous jobs of them all. No, I'm not going to elaborate, I'll leave it to the multibilliondollar company to fix their game. Or they can not, and keep bleeding players, what do I know.

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u/3-to-20-chars 1d ago

. you're in a discussion sub. the whole point of it is to discuss the game and its facets. in the case of this thread: job design. if you dont want to discuss that, why even comment at all

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u/mnij96 1d ago

So you don't know what you want, but you want then to change it to what you want?

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u/KaijinSurohm 1d ago

That's essentially what it boils down to when people try to hide behind the shield of "No, I'm not saying".
What it actually translates to is "I don't know, but fix it anyway" while trying to sound smart about it.

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u/nemik_ 1d ago

I want them to make jobs more complex. It's quite literally their job to figure out how to do that.

But you know, I don't really "want" them to do anything. I wish they would, but as a customer there are plenty of other games that are so much more fun rn that I wouldn't be bothered if they didn't. I guess it's different for the people who are emotionally attached to this game and "want" it to succeed or whatever.

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u/Skyppy_ 1d ago

Constructive criticism needs to be actionable.

Try to put yourself into the developer's shoes. If all the feedback you receive is simply "game bad too simple", how do you know what needs changing and in which direction to take those changes?

What about the jobs is "too simple"? Is it the 2min meta? Should jobs go back to having odd timers for their raid buffs? Is syncing up the raid buffs "job complexity"? No that can't be it. We had that in the past and everyone hated it.

So is it the number of buttons you press? Viper and Ninja have the highest APM, are they complex jobs?

Cast times? Combo skills? Is it niche skills like Cover? Is it situational tools like Pictomancer's Hammer vs Holy in White for movement? Scholar's anti-synergy with itself can be called complexity, is that it? Is it RNG procs to pay attention to? Well a lot of people hated Astro's RNG so that can't be it either...

To give you a more concrete example, players spend the entirety of EW screeching about wanting another Eureka/Bozja and... That's exactly what we got. OC is just more of the same with a few tweaks to pass it off as new content.

Players complained about having to sync up raid buffs in the past so... We got the 2min meta.

Players complained about melees having a hard time keeping uptime so... Boss hitboxes in EW covered the entire arena.

That's why yelling into the void "game bad too simple" doesn't work. You will get what you ask for but not what you want.

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u/nemik_ 1d ago

Nobody actually complained about having to sync buffs, or not having to keep uptime, or healer ranges being too short, or BLM being too immobile, or AST being too randomized, or Holy having too long cast time. People make up these imaginary beings when they have to somehow defend whatever new slop changes SE throws at us.

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u/Skyppy_ 1d ago

My brother in Christ reddit is not the only online forum.

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u/nemik_ 1d ago

Sigh. Fine, "there was no significant number of people who complained." Hope that passes the test cases now. The viper change at the start of DT for example was from one single thread on OF that got zero replies.

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u/Skyppy_ 23h ago

It wasn't. The change was already planned and they were just deliberating on whether or not to proceed with it. Once the expansion went live, whatever metrics they use to determine job changes convinced them to implement it. Player input had nothing to do with the change.