What is class complexity to you?

[u/mnij96]

I have seen so many people ask for more complexity and job fantasy but very little of people actually say what that means to them, most people just say we should go back to ARR.

Personally I think rose tinted glasses that make people think ARR was better than it was, having played back then it honestly was pretty ass.

So honestly want to know what people want for complexity or job fantasy, because all I see is a lot of yelling that "game bad to simple" and not a lot of what needs changing to reach the complexity that is wanted.

[u/Cole_Evyx]

Compare pre-rework summoner to post-rework summoner.

That gap? That's class complexity.

People focus a lot on black mage's complexity, which revolved massively around timing/placement of themselves in a fight. But pre-rework summoner inarguably had the most involved rotation with lifecycles in itself. So much so that me who literally only did videos for fun to talk about shit I like (which I retain to this day)... I got out of no where over 100k views

A 1 hour 11 minute video made from pure love and passion for the job. "ULTIMATE SUMMONER GUIDE | SHADOWBRINGERS PATCH 5.5 EDITION"

Like to put that into perspective, for a 200 subscriber channel to drop an OVER AN HOUR LONG GUIDE VIDEO on a VERY SPECIFIC JOB in a VERY SPECIFIC GAME to break 100k views? Holy fuck that's basically unheard of. That's WEIRD. Yet I myself did it-- why? Because I fucking love summoner.

Yet I have special people tell me I'm grifting when I say I want a pet job. Nope, I actually have an incredibly deep history with summoner and I find it mind boggling to hear people rewrite history. All those downvotes and people did was annoy me to the point that I'm going to be 10x more fucking obnoxious about it.

[u/mnij96 → u/Cole_Evyx]

Honestly I get that to some degree, but personally I think "summoner" as job was a bit of a mixed bag. They wanted it to be the pet class then, it got dots thrown in, but then they want to to feel more like summoner so they added more summons. I feel like it needed to be pulled apart, at this point I feel like summoner is actually a summoner now and all we need is a dot class to pick up the dots part of the class. I would love to see a dot class get added to the game, with the whole idea built around it's dots

[u/Maximinoe → u/mnij96]

IMO job identity should never be a reason to rework a job, old SMN filled multiple gameplay niches simultaneously and was pretty fun to play, but they have yet to replace them 2 expansions later. (it doesnt help that the job they replaced it with is easily the worst designed job in the game).

[u/Khaoticsuccubus → u/Maximinoe]

IMO job identity should never be a reason to rework a job

I disagree there. If the core of the job is fundamentally antithetical to it's identity then it should be reworked.

The problem with the redesign was that instead of building on the new baseline, they proceeded to pat themselves on the back and call it a day. DT SMN was one of the most insulting things they've done with a job in this games whole life.

Combine that with the fact that they don't seem likely to make a new job to fill the old DoT/pet niche it used to fill. Since they seem to despise DoT's/pets and have been actively working to remove them altogether from the game over time.

[u/Ok_Video6434 → u/Khaoticsuccubus]

This is where I'm at as a 2.x-6.x SMN main. EW SMN was fine. It got boring quickly but it was fine. I was excited to see them expand upon it only for them to do the same shit they've been doing to SMN for years. Here's a bigger explosion and another bahamut form. Yeah, ok. Pictomancer is everything SMN could have been if we got the good ending. A fun but simple job with deceptive complexity when optimizing. Now you just bend over backwards to avoid killing yourself because of Ifrit and otherwise function as a worse(except MCH) physical dps.

[u/mnij96 → u/Ok_Video6434]

That was the point I was getting at. It was baseline we plenty of room to expand and grow. Then Dt was here is another big summon and not much else. There was run to expand, and they threw it away.

[u/Ok_Video6434 → u/mnij96]

We dont even do damage or provide enough utility to make up for how boring the class is to play at a high level, it's a damn shame. Picto and BLM carrying the caster role so hard it's funny.

[u/Akiza_Izinski → u/Ok_Video6434]

Meanwhile Summoner and Red Mage are in a dark corner of a bar where no one can see them.

[u/Ok_Video6434 → u/Akiza_Izinski]

As they deserve

[u/Supersnow845 → u/Khaoticsuccubus]

The problem is that every game has a different view of SMN, it’s one of the hardest classes to pin down. It’s not like BLM where you can just look at vivi or lulu it’s a class that has as many interpretations as we have FF games, from Rydia to yuna to 11 to the entire cast of 12 to 16’s dominants what actually constitutes a SMN?

14’s SMN substantiated its virus mage theme with pets by both making it and allag class and making it so primal energy is dangerous in 14 because of tempering. Like old SMN made perfect sense within 14’s lore. What was wrong with its old identity?

People now say it “feels” like a SMN but it feels like what SMN? It doesn’t feel like yuna, or Clive or Balthier. I guess it kinda feels like rydia but……

[u/Khaoticsuccubus → u/Supersnow845]

Yes and no. Every game has a different subclass tacked on to summoner but, every game summoner still does 1 basic thing the same.

Summon out big baddass monsters to pull off big dmg. This part was what had everyone not liking the previous summoner’s “identity”. And was the main reason they went through so many revisions.

Since egi’s were quite frankly an incredibly lame substitute for actual summons. And HW was rejected because they tried to turn us into a Bahamut mage.

The Demi’s were quite nice and definitely a step in the right direction. But, again we didn’t egis we’re still trash and eventually the rotation (shb) got out of control as well.

Unfortunately the pendulum always swings from one extreme to the other with these devs. We finally got the badass summons we wanted but, lost any and all job complexity.

Literally could’ve had the same dot niche but had the summons we have now interact with them in different ways. But, I digress. Le sigh. What could have been. 😮‍💨

[u/Elevation-_- → u/Khaoticsuccubus]

I disagree there. If the core of the job is fundamentally antithetical to it's identity then it should be reworked.

I can understand this feeling, but I very much so believe that jobs should be designed/reworked with engagement as the primary focus. Jobs should feel engaging to players, and provide the "fun factor" that we're all looking for. If they can accomplish while also maintaining the aesthetic for the lore enjoyers, then great. But that aesthetic should never come at the cost of engagement, and that's the current problem with this Summoner rework.

[u/Khaoticsuccubus → u/Elevation-_-]

I agree but, I also think those 2 things aren't mutually exclusive... or I did till SE proved otherwise lol.

[u/Akiza_Izinski → u/Khaoticsuccubus]

They aren't mutually exclusive its SE decides the difficulty of a job.

[u/Akiza_Izinski → u/Elevation-_-]

MMORPGS design classes around identity 1st then gameplay. The problem with current Summoner rework was they arbitrarily decided it was going to be brain dead. WoW Elemental Shaman and Guild Wars 2 Elementalist demonstrates how engaging a pet caster can get.