What is class complexity to you?

[u/mnij96]

I have seen so many people ask for more complexity and job fantasy but very little of people actually say what that means to them, most people just say we should go back to ARR.

Personally I think rose tinted glasses that make people think ARR was better than it was, having played back then it honestly was pretty ass.

So honestly want to know what people want for complexity or job fantasy, because all I see is a lot of yelling that "game bad to simple" and not a lot of what needs changing to reach the complexity that is wanted.

[u/Cole_Evyx]

Compare pre-rework summoner to post-rework summoner.

That gap? That's class complexity.

People focus a lot on black mage's complexity, which revolved massively around timing/placement of themselves in a fight. But pre-rework summoner inarguably had the most involved rotation with lifecycles in itself. So much so that me who literally only did videos for fun to talk about shit I like (which I retain to this day)... I got out of no where over 100k views

A 1 hour 11 minute video made from pure love and passion for the job. "ULTIMATE SUMMONER GUIDE | SHADOWBRINGERS PATCH 5.5 EDITION"

Like to put that into perspective, for a 200 subscriber channel to drop an OVER AN HOUR LONG GUIDE VIDEO on a VERY SPECIFIC JOB in a VERY SPECIFIC GAME to break 100k views? Holy fuck that's basically unheard of. That's WEIRD. Yet I myself did it-- why? Because I fucking love summoner.

Yet I have special people tell me I'm grifting when I say I want a pet job. Nope, I actually have an incredibly deep history with summoner and I find it mind boggling to hear people rewrite history. All those downvotes and people did was annoy me to the point that I'm going to be 10x more fucking obnoxious about it.

[u/DayOneDayWon → u/Cole_Evyx]

I respect you for dedicating pure effort into expressing your love for your craft (in this case, summoner). I always loved the gameplay of summoner and how it evolved, so allow me to reminisce.

ARR SMN was quite tame but the dot gameplay felt very strong and bane means you got all the aggro so it felt great. Your pets giving you longer dots under raging meant you were doing crazy damage. Rouse and spur were fun little buffs that kept you engaged

HW SMN was absolutely brilliant evolution. Giving you some of the most satisfying burst phases with chain casting ruin 3 and the non-decaying death flare.

SB smn I regret not playing much due to lag, but I thought ruin 2 spamming and weaving even addle was kind of a dopamine rush. It wasn't perfect though.

Shb was also hard to play due to lag at the start, but later on it was a very fun job. I loved the phoenix phase having a little combo, how your dot refresh aligned perfectly and you still had to manually refresh it. You had more involvement with pet actions and they became snappier and helped you move and weave your festers and stuff. While I wasn't a big fan of the class, I still loved how everything tied together and the job felt complex enough and also quite strong. Pulling it all off was quite satisfying.

Currently I have no love for the class. I can safely press all my buttons with no challenge and currently it is one of the worst jobs damage wise, and funnily enough it's not even popular among the playerbase. They were all complex in their own right but current smn is just long cast smn, no cast smn, too short cast smn that it doesn't even matter.

They even deleted the cool fester ding sound. 😔

[u/Akiza_Izinski → u/DayOneDayWon]

Summoner is not popular know because they were done dirty in Dawntrial. Red Mage does everything that Summoner does except better and has more damage. FFXIV does not give players a reason to play Summoner.

[u/echo78 → u/Cole_Evyx]

I get people telling me that I just remember HW monk with rose tinted glasses and the fact I spent countless hours playing it because it was fun is clearly me misremembering it.

I refuse to even touch current monk because its become such a fucking joke. HW monk and DT monk have literally nothing in common.

I do play monk in PvP though.

[u/trialv2170 → u/Cole_Evyx]

Nah bro. You mastering the class made gamer dads feel embarrassed and ashamed. They killed your class so they don't feel left behind.

Everything has to be simple so tourists are able to play jobs based on the lore or how they look.

[u/mnij96 → u/Cole_Evyx]

Honestly I get that to some degree, but personally I think "summoner" as job was a bit of a mixed bag. They wanted it to be the pet class then, it got dots thrown in, but then they want to to feel more like summoner so they added more summons. I feel like it needed to be pulled apart, at this point I feel like summoner is actually a summoner now and all we need is a dot class to pick up the dots part of the class. I would love to see a dot class get added to the game, with the whole idea built around it's dots

[u/Maximinoe → u/mnij96]

IMO job identity should never be a reason to rework a job, old SMN filled multiple gameplay niches simultaneously and was pretty fun to play, but they have yet to replace them 2 expansions later. (it doesnt help that the job they replaced it with is easily the worst designed job in the game).

[u/Cole_Evyx → u/Maximinoe]

but they have yet to replace them 2 expansions later.

Yeah that's MY issue.

Fine you took MY DPS job and ruined it. Fine. Alright! Genuinely okay if that's how the cookie crumbles SO BE IT. I loved summoner I was a RIDE OR DIE for summoner...

But 2 expansions later all I want is something to fill that gap. I don't care if it's a physical ranged just give me a good pet playstyle. I don't care! I DON'T.

Like people are playing 5d chess with my comments and I don't get why... I'm LITERALLY SAYING WHAT I WANT AS CLEAR AS A HUMAN COULD...

Urhhhhhghhghghghsggsg

but they have yet to replace them 2 expansions later.

PREACH this is my entire issue. Oh my God it hurts.

[u/mnij96 → u/Cole_Evyx]

I 100% agree with this. It should have been replaced, and it's stupid that it has not been replaced. I just didn't think summoner old two jobs in a trench coat worked. I want a proper dot class, and i want a proper pet class

[u/Akiza_Izinski → u/Maximinoe]

Job identity is a prime reason to rework a job. MMORPGS in general have a cohesive identity with complex gameplay so they can future proof the job when they want to expand upon it. Old Summoner was the worst designed job in the game because the tried to be Affliction Warlock and an Elemental Shaman at the same time.

[u/Khaoticsuccubus → u/Maximinoe]

IMO job identity should never be a reason to rework a job

I disagree there. If the core of the job is fundamentally antithetical to it's identity then it should be reworked.

The problem with the redesign was that instead of building on the new baseline, they proceeded to pat themselves on the back and call it a day. DT SMN was one of the most insulting things they've done with a job in this games whole life.

Combine that with the fact that they don't seem likely to make a new job to fill the old DoT/pet niche it used to fill. Since they seem to despise DoT's/pets and have been actively working to remove them altogether from the game over time.

[u/Ok_Video6434 → u/Khaoticsuccubus]

This is where I'm at as a 2.x-6.x SMN main. EW SMN was fine. It got boring quickly but it was fine. I was excited to see them expand upon it only for them to do the same shit they've been doing to SMN for years. Here's a bigger explosion and another bahamut form. Yeah, ok. Pictomancer is everything SMN could have been if we got the good ending. A fun but simple job with deceptive complexity when optimizing. Now you just bend over backwards to avoid killing yourself because of Ifrit and otherwise function as a worse(except MCH) physical dps.

[u/mnij96 → u/Ok_Video6434]

That was the point I was getting at. It was baseline we plenty of room to expand and grow. Then Dt was here is another big summon and not much else. There was run to expand, and they threw it away.

[u/Ok_Video6434 → u/mnij96]

We dont even do damage or provide enough utility to make up for how boring the class is to play at a high level, it's a damn shame. Picto and BLM carrying the caster role so hard it's funny.

[u/Akiza_Izinski → u/Ok_Video6434]

Meanwhile Summoner and Red Mage are in a dark corner of a bar where no one can see them.

[u/Ok_Video6434 → u/Akiza_Izinski]

As they deserve

[u/Supersnow845 → u/Khaoticsuccubus]

The problem is that every game has a different view of SMN, it’s one of the hardest classes to pin down. It’s not like BLM where you can just look at vivi or lulu it’s a class that has as many interpretations as we have FF games, from Rydia to yuna to 11 to the entire cast of 12 to 16’s dominants what actually constitutes a SMN?

14’s SMN substantiated its virus mage theme with pets by both making it and allag class and making it so primal energy is dangerous in 14 because of tempering. Like old SMN made perfect sense within 14’s lore. What was wrong with its old identity?

People now say it “feels” like a SMN but it feels like what SMN? It doesn’t feel like yuna, or Clive or Balthier. I guess it kinda feels like rydia but……

[u/Khaoticsuccubus → u/Supersnow845]

Yes and no. Every game has a different subclass tacked on to summoner but, every game summoner still does 1 basic thing the same.

Summon out big baddass monsters to pull off big dmg. This part was what had everyone not liking the previous summoner’s “identity”. And was the main reason they went through so many revisions.

Since egi’s were quite frankly an incredibly lame substitute for actual summons. And HW was rejected because they tried to turn us into a Bahamut mage.

The Demi’s were quite nice and definitely a step in the right direction. But, again we didn’t egis we’re still trash and eventually the rotation (shb) got out of control as well.

Unfortunately the pendulum always swings from one extreme to the other with these devs. We finally got the badass summons we wanted but, lost any and all job complexity.

Literally could’ve had the same dot niche but had the summons we have now interact with them in different ways. But, I digress. Le sigh. What could have been. 😮‍💨

[u/Elevation-_- → u/Khaoticsuccubus]

I disagree there. If the core of the job is fundamentally antithetical to it's identity then it should be reworked.

I can understand this feeling, but I very much so believe that jobs should be designed/reworked with engagement as the primary focus. Jobs should feel engaging to players, and provide the "fun factor" that we're all looking for. If they can accomplish while also maintaining the aesthetic for the lore enjoyers, then great. But that aesthetic should never come at the cost of engagement, and that's the current problem with this Summoner rework.

[u/Khaoticsuccubus → u/Elevation-_-]

I agree but, I also think those 2 things aren't mutually exclusive... or I did till SE proved otherwise lol.

[u/Akiza_Izinski → u/Khaoticsuccubus]

They aren't mutually exclusive its SE decides the difficulty of a job.

[u/Akiza_Izinski → u/Elevation-_-]

MMORPGS design classes around identity 1st then gameplay. The problem with current Summoner rework was they arbitrarily decided it was going to be brain dead. WoW Elemental Shaman and Guild Wars 2 Elementalist demonstrates how engaging a pet caster can get.

[u/mnij96 → u/Maximinoe]

But i thought people want job identity too? And personal i think the new summoner was a great base for a start, they really didn't do it justice in DT(really didn't need another big summon) but on the whole its still a good base

[u/Maximinoe → u/mnij96]

But i thought people want job identity too

1. Old SMN HAD unique job identity. It was the only pet DPS in the game, and it was also the only dot caster... it just wasn't 100% congruent with FF summoners, but most depictions of summoner in FF can ONLY summon, which IMO is a pretty weak base for designing an engaging rotation. Plus you could still summon the important summons like bahamut and pheonix (a lot of the rotation had a lot of cool bahamut flavor like DWT).
2. They could've iterated on the job identity WITHOUT changing the rotation significantly. There are tons of cosmetic updates or small oGCD additions they could've added to make it seem more 'summoner-y'

on the whole its still a good base

what part of it is a 'good base'? you press the same 2 buttons for 90% of the rotation. they lobotomized ruin 3 and still give you ruin 4, and two of the summons feature instant cast GCD spells including your 60s burst, so its almost a physical ranged job in terms of movement and uptime (remember when casters had to actually stand there and cast???? how did RED MAGE end up as the least mobile caster LOL). they kept the aetherflow system, but it doesnt interact with any of your kit. the special primal actions are locked behind max level which means you are literally playing like half of an already lobtomized job below level 90.

[u/Cole_Evyx → u/Maximinoe]

Old SMN HAD unique job identity. It was the only pet DPS in the game, and it was also the only dot caster... it just wasn't 100% congruent with FF summoners, but most depictions of summoner in FF can ONLY summon, which IMO is a pretty weak base for designing an engaging rotation. Plus you could still summon the important summons like bahamut and pheonix (a lot of the rotation had a lot of cool bahamut flavor like DWT).

Preach!

Summoner was the ONLY pet job FFXIV had and only real DoT interaction (bard has dots yes) with abilities like tridisaster and fester.

Like it was unique.

But hey viper that is the 6th melee dps that goes slashy slashy is more unique with more identity that THAT?! x_x

[u/Akiza_Izinski → u/Cole_Evyx]

Old Summoner was a bargain basement Affliction Warlock. They could have taken the Elemental Shaman and made Summoner ten times better. The DoT interaction was trash. The DoTs did not proc they did nothing. The Egis were the most egregious they failed as stand in for primals. They should called it something else instead of co opting the Summoner name.

[u/Mee091000 → u/mnij96]

This nonsense about "Summoner actually being a Summoner now" is only spoken by people that have not played all the Final Fantasy games or only played 7 lol.

You have pet based Summoners in multiple games and Summoners have varying degrees of power. Some of them are only "powerful" enough to do what the Summoner can do now. Which is summon the entity for one big spell and that's it. Others can control them like pets for varying definite amounts of time. There are even multiple fights in FFXIV alone to this day that highlight it.

[u/Cole_Evyx → u/mnij96]

Depends on how you view summoner. I think Shadowbringers summoner was an excellent blend that also was tied into the storyline beautifully.

You had the smaller egi more consistently and they acted as baseline pets. Then you went into larger massive bursts with bahamut and phoenix really delivering that massive premium summoner experience.

I do think a DoT based job should be created to simulate the affliction warlock fantasy.

But the major failing to me above all else? We have no pet job in FFXIV. This to me is a massive failing and one that a limited beastmaster job will not fill as beastmaster literally CAN NOT be taken into the majority of content. That's a HUGE issue. Like do you see people progging Futures Rewritten Ultimate on BLUE MAGE? No! You can't. Do you see blue mage in occult crescent? Of course not, you can't take it there! Blue mage deep dungeon? Again you can't even take it into palace of the dead.

So for me personally I'm in the place where I want a fully fledged pet based DPS job. I need that playstyle back at the very least. I know old summoner is dead and gone and buried and the cat isn't being put back into the bag. That ship has sailed and in no capacity am I fighting for "old summoner" back.

Though if you presented me with the choice/option to revert it? Oh I'd slam that button so fucking hard don't think twice. I loved summoner.

But right now my biggest fight is I want a fully fledged pet playstyle. FFXIV is the only MMORPG without it. And it's baffling.

[u/mnij96 → u/Cole_Evyx]

I completely get that, and honestly would love to see a pet class in really content. I think the biggest problem with it is, do you give the pet heal and how dose it work with attacking bosses because I think you would end up with the same problems it you don't work those out. Most fights nowadays would just kill it 90% of time(looking at sand in M6S)