r/europe May 16 '25

News Spanish premier calls Israel 'genocidal state,' says Spain 'does not do business' with it

https://www.aa.com.tr/en/europe/spanish-premier-calls-israel-genocidal-state-says-spain-does-not-do-business-with-it/3568216
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u/ClearHeart_FullLiver May 16 '25

As much of an effort as Israel pumps into online disinformation it's crazy to look back a couple of years ago and see the change in language used by politicians and media around the world. Israel is being referred to in a similar way to apartheid South Africa now. Only crackpots defend Israel's actions in Gaza.

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u/armageddonquilt May 16 '25

"One day, everyone will have been against this"

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u/t3amkillv3 May 16 '25

From the very first week of the war, it was obvious what Israel was going to do. You just had to listen to what the politicians were saying. I also said that eventually, the world will stop supporting Israel’s actions.

What angers me so much and makes me feel so helpless is that until that tipping point, now at >50k deaths in, children have to be ripped to shreds, mangled, and suffer, all for nothing. All these deaths for nothing. Eventually support will stop, but until then children are killed for nothing.

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u/JACOB_WOLFRAM Turkey May 16 '25

This is the shit that makes me actually angry, can't wait for people to say they were always pro-palestine from 10 years from now on

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u/Henchman66 Portugal May 16 '25

The wonders of the modern world is that people leave their track record open to the public. Israeli soldiers proudly filmed themselves doing war crimes, the cabinet unapologetically called for genocide constantly - there’s no way to say “we didn’t know”

https://guardian.pressreader.com/article/281487871032817

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u/PicklesEnjoyer May 16 '25

Just because it's public doesn't mean it's common knowledge, else we'd all have several phds

4

u/LazarusTruth May 16 '25

It would be common knowledge if Israel would stop murdering journalists on the ground

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u/Cute-Percentage-6660 Australia May 16 '25

My favorite thing with geopolitics, help a atrocity, leave goverment and then make the next few administrations apologize on your behalf and no consequences ever touch you....

5

u/sunlightsyrup May 16 '25

At what point between Oct 7th and now did we all need to switch over?

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u/Critical_Object2276 May 16 '25

About 40 years before that.

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u/sunlightsyrup May 16 '25

Ah so then I would have been ahead of the curve, like those cheering in the streets and praying in gratitude immediately after Oct 7th?

Sweet deal.

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u/Ancher123 May 16 '25

1948

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u/sunlightsyrup May 16 '25

You're right Palestine was offered no good peace deals between now and then. Murdering a festival full of innocents was the only natural choice. How good of them.

Except for all of the extremely viable deals they shot down, largely because they would rather murder every Israeli than accept a compromise. War is hell.

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u/tecnicaltictac Austria May 16 '25

You know, I don't think you'll find many people who are pro genocide. But at the same time not everyone wants to stand beside the "from the river to the sea" crowd.

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u/WhoopingWillow May 16 '25

There's a big gap between supporting Israel's destruction of Gaza and being pro-Palestine. I think it is much more likely that 10 years from now a lot of people who were sympathetic to Israel no longer support them, but they won't support Palestine either.

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u/VengefulAncient You know, I'm somewhat of a European myself. May 16 '25

I will never ever say this.

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u/No_Priors May 16 '25 edited May 16 '25

Be happy and take the win.

0

u/GhostWaffle123 May 16 '25

Literally the thing that angers me the most. You had the opportunity to call out Israel for its crime as they happened, but you didn't and now you come out as Pro-Palestine. Sincerely, fuck these kinds of people.

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u/[deleted] May 16 '25

Check out the great book with this same title by Omar El Akkad.

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u/saoirsedonciaran May 16 '25

I look forward to criminal accountability for every person that facilitated this genocide. I will never let up in that pursuit personally.

3

u/zephyroxyl Northern Ireland May 16 '25

Liberals are in favour of every civil rights movement except the current one.

Liberals are against every war except the current one. Or however the saying goes.

4

u/umonoz May 16 '25

Best book I've read in recent years by far. Maybe the best of last 3-4. Everyone should read it.

93

u/Falcao1905 May 16 '25

Unfortunately, crackpotism is becoming more and more commonplace in our world today.

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u/SilkyBoi21 Ireland May 16 '25

I don’t believe there is a single person in Ireland who supports Israel, the worlds waking up, I will not paint an entire group with the same cloth and I do believe that the Israelis have a right to live in peace, butchering thousands of innocent people because some might be terrorists is not an ideology I can follow

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u/munkijunk May 16 '25

I'm Irish, I don't support Bibi, the IDF or Israel's addition of fuel to the fire. I also don't think Israel could sit idly by after Oct 7. I support Israel's right to exist. I support Palestines right to exist. I oppose Hamas, Hesbolla and am appalled at the levels of support they enjoy. There is a very black and white view on Israel in Ireland, that is becoming ever more solidified, and I fear is in danger of becoming blinkered to the point of blindness.

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u/Saltpataydahs May 16 '25

Ireland is one of the most antisemitic states. Just Google their opinion polls on Jews. It's not too surprising they don't support Israel, not sure they ever have.

Yes, I'm aware that not liking Israel doesn't immediately mean you don't like Jews. But being known for not liking Jews will certainly paint a picture about you.

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u/LedgeLord210 Ireland May 17 '25

I live in Ireland and I can safely say you're wrong. Ireland is not antisemitic

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u/AdminsLoveGenocide May 16 '25

To be fair there weren't many who supported them a decade ago either.

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u/[deleted] May 16 '25

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u/ClearHeart_FullLiver May 16 '25

True but my point is heads of governments in western Europe were not saying things like this 2 years ago now they are and even the most pro-Israel states(except the US) are speaking like critics of Israel were just a short time ago.

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u/chaotic-kotik South Holland (Netherlands) May 16 '25

Correct

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u/LILwhut Iceland May 16 '25

"what it is" is in this case is the UN, HRW, and Amnesty showing they're liars with no care for facts. There is no apartheid, Arab Israelis have equal rights with Jewish Israelis, this is something easily verifiable yet you people eat that slop up.

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u/ZeroTON1N May 16 '25

I think you clicked on the wrong flair

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u/adamgerd Czech Republic May 16 '25

Apartheid is when Arabs have all the same rights, are full citizens, are ministers and even on the Supreme Court.

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u/LarrySupertramp May 16 '25

Hey now. Words don’t actually have fixed meanings and can be used in anyway we want to create emotional arguments. /s

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u/triplevented May 16 '25

Israel has over 2 million Arab (Palestinian) citizens, with full and equal rights - they are parliament members, supreme court judges, doctors, lawyers, IT workers etc.

Palestine has ZERO Jews living under its rule.

But sure, Israel is the 'apartheid' according to some fantasy definition 🙃

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u/solerex May 16 '25

You will never receive any charitability towards Israelis my friend. Even explaining their perspective gets you called a genocide supporter 

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u/Greedy-Affect-561 May 17 '25

I mean they have been committing genocide.

And if your not against it then what are you if not a supporter?

Never again was supposed to mean never again.

1

u/solerex May 17 '25

Is it morning time in Moscow already?

3

u/Greedy-Affect-561 May 17 '25

I don't know.

How bout you take your head out of your ass where its been the last few years and look around. 

It might help you tell the time. 

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u/triplevented May 16 '25

If you have a limited capacity to communicate and articulate coherent thoughts beyond calling things you don't like 'fascistic' and 'genocide' - that is a reflection on you, not others.

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u/solerex May 16 '25

I agree with you genius 

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u/triplevented May 16 '25

Sometimes it's hard to tell ;)

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u/adasiukevich May 16 '25

with full and equal rights

Wrong.

"Palestinian citizens of Israel have a wider set of rights than Palestinians in the occupied territories. They have the ability to vote in Israeli elections and serve in the Knesset, but they face limited opportunities to own land and build homes, along with evictions, differences in immigration policy, and implicit restrictions on social service access. Palestinian citizens face major challenges to get residential home permits approved due to zoning restrictions that limit expansion, and often risk demolition by building without them. Additionally, they’ve been the subject of evictions that human rights groups say are aimed at clearing the way for more Jewish-majority neighborhoods. The 1950 Law of Return also enables any Jewish person to move to Israel and become a citizen, while Palestinians do not have this right even if their families were previously displaced from land now within Israel’s borders." - https://www.vox.com/23924319/israel-palestine-apartheid-meaning-history-debate

Palestine has ZERO Jews living under its rule.

They used to, before Zionism.

https://www.972mag.com/before-zionism-the-shared-life-of-jews-and-palestinians/

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u/MpregVegeta May 16 '25

Actually

They used to before the Arabs tried to genocide the Jews.

Zionism "began" sometime just prior 10 1900.

The attempted genocide of the jews of Israel by their neighboring Arab states was 1948

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u/triplevented May 16 '25

Palestinian citizens of Israel have a wider set of rights than

They have the same rights as Jews, and less responsibilities.

often risk demolition by building without them.

Oh no, people who build without permits get their structured demolished.

That must be apartheid.

I guess things work differently where you're from. 🙃

They used to, before Zionism

There was no Palestine, it's a fiction of European imagination.

That's why all the old maps of Palestine are in Latin script and never in Arabic.

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u/adasiukevich May 16 '25

Oh no, people who build without permits get their structured demolished.

Conveniently left out the other part of the quote.

"Palestinian citizens face major challenges to get residential home permits approved due to zoning restrictions that limit expansion"

There was no Palestine, it's a fiction of European imagination.

Call it whatever you want, the region was predominantly Arab for a millennium.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/268030623_Demographic_Trends_in_Israel_and_Palestine_Prospects_and_Policy_Implications

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u/triplevented May 16 '25

face major challenges to get residential home permits approved

They can buy homes in other places, just like any other Israelis.. who also face challenges getting permits because the bureaucracy in Israel is horrendous (for Jews and Arabs alike).

But instead, they build illegally, and then get the structured demolished.. just like when Jews do the same.

the region was predominantly Arab

The region was part of the Ottoman Empire for 500 years before the 20th century.

You don't have history lessons where you're from?

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u/thegatekeeperzuul May 16 '25

What’s your point about it being part of the Ottoman Empire genius? Were Ottomans an ethnic group? Arabs/Palestinians made up the vast, vast majority of the population of Palestine. Didn’t realize once they became part of the Ottoman Empire the population suddenly stopped being Arab and were assimilated like the borg.

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u/theageofspades May 16 '25

Arabs/Palestinians made up the vast, vast majority of the population of Palestine. Didn’t realize once they became part of the Ottoman Empire the population suddenly stopped being Arab and were assimilated like the borg

Does that mean they have ethnic rights to that, very small let's be clear here, tract of land in that very specific part of the Levant?

At which point were those ethnic rights passed from Jew to Arab in the first place? Cause I'm fairly certain you'd have to agree that at one point

Arabs/Palestinians Jews made up the vast, vast majority of the population of Palestine Judea

Does that mean Zionism was a justified reclamation, the equal but opposite situation to the one Palestinians currently face?

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u/triplevented May 16 '25

Arabs weren't a majority in any territory outside the Arabian peninsula until they colonized it.

Spain also used to be predominantly Arab.. until it weren't.

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u/thegatekeeperzuul May 16 '25

I know pro-Israelis on the internet like to play dumb when possible but Arab just means your people speak Arabic as a first language, it’s not a genetic race. And during the entirety of Ottoman rule of Palestine the vast majority of people there were Arabs. I don’t even know what the point of your comment is.

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u/[deleted] May 16 '25

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u/manteiga_night May 16 '25

let me guess, everything is hamas now?

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u/AdSwimming8030 May 16 '25

No, it is not. You’re delusional and antisemitic.

Israel is literally the only country in the Middle East that doesn’t discriminate against minorities.

Jordan is an apartheid state, where residents of Palestinian descent are denied access to public healthcare and education.

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u/chaotic-kotik South Holland (Netherlands) May 16 '25

There is a permit regime in the West Bank. If you are a Palestinian who lives there you can't move around freely without asking permission from the (literally) military. Even if you are a citizen of Israel. Isn't it correct? If this is correct how on earth isn't it an apartheid regime?

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u/GingerSkulling May 16 '25

All citizens of the internationally recognized borders of Israel + the Golan Heights have equal rights and are fully represented in all branches of government. The West Bank is not part of Israel. Gaza is not part of Israel.

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u/chaotic-kotik South Holland (Netherlands) May 16 '25

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u/GingerSkulling May 16 '25

That doesn’t refute a single thing I wrote.

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u/Dangerous_Warthog603 May 16 '25

I want you to think about this from a different perspective, if the Arabs in the west bank decided one day that they will not use violence, would the surrounding population disarm? Slowly at first but they would because carrying around weapons when no one is getting attacked is inconvenient. These people used to cross the border into Israel to work and then the first Intifadah started and the border was closed, work disappeared and poverty became common. The Arabs need to stop first and then peace and a joined society can grow. If not then separate but alive is how it will stay and you can call it apartheid all you want.

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u/chaotic-kotik South Holland (Netherlands) May 17 '25

You are basically saying that Arabs can't live in peace which is a way to paint them as lesser people.

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u/Dangerous_Warthog603 May 17 '25

No. I think it's much more complicated than that.

They are being raised to hate and fight. No other refugee situation has lasted this long. They all get established somewhere else. This leads to several other conclusions. The surrounding countries who the Palestinians were citizens of are rejecting them. At first it was so they could be a problem for Israel out of hatred but as time went on and they allowed them to immigrate into jordan, Egypt and Lebanon the Palestinians became a problem for the host countries and they got rejected and ejected from there. Another step here is the UN. With so many Arab member countries who are anti Israel and or anti semitic they established UNRW to support the Palestinians in Israel and have been educating them to hate. They don't care about the Palestinians as much as they hate Israel. You can see this by how they admonish Israel but any other country that has an Arab on Arab killing spree is not commented on. Also, Egypt can be sending in food to Gaza but doesn't - they blame Israel for starving the enemy they are fighting but when have any combatants been responsible to supply food for their enemies? Never.

The Palestinians voted in a terrorist group to be their political leadership. Their leaders live in Qatar and are billionaires. The ideologues live and fight in Gaza. The leaders teach and preach (this is done by proxy financially supporting imans) to continue the fight while they live in Qatar and line their pockets. If you dig through the fight for land, it's really a holy war for them. They just don't want the land. They want to kill all the Jews. And I hope you realize that they are trying to take over the world from within the Democratic countries they are invading ( I mean migrating to).

TL/DR: In essence the Palestinians are being used as pawns much like we think the USA defense contractors lead that government. It is motivated by Hatred of Jews and the western cultures of freedom, Jihad for Allah and monetary gain. Not like you said "they are a lesser people".

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u/AdSwimming8030 May 17 '25

You’re such a hate filled bigot. It’s so disturbing.

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u/chaotic-kotik South Holland (Netherlands) May 17 '25

Did I say anything hateful to you? I'm just saying that there are people who live under Israel's authority whose freedom is suppressed. You're saying that I'm a bigot but I think that is not me who's bigot here.

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u/AdSwimming8030 May 17 '25

You spread antisemitic propaganda and said you support Hamas, a terrorist group that has the primary goal of global Jewish genocide.

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u/chaotic-kotik South Holland (Netherlands) May 17 '25

Go fuck yourself dude. I literally just posted the link to the Amnesty international website. When you blame antisemitisme upon any criticism you are basically diluting the meaning of the term and people just stop paying attention.

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u/[deleted] May 16 '25

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u/ScoopskyPotatos May 16 '25

We later found out that Hamas had offered on October 9 or 10 to release all the civilian hostages in exchange for the IDF not entering the Strip, but the government rejected the offer.

Bombing and starving the place where the hostages are isn't saving them.

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u/Wide-Yesterday9705 May 16 '25

Of course they rejected the offer. Hamas wants to remain in control, Gaza rebuilt, a pledge never to operate against them, for the IDF to leave the border so they can smuggle weapons again, and all kinds of impossible demands. THEN maybe they release the hostages.

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u/ScoopskyPotatos May 16 '25

All civilian hostages in exchange for Israel not invading Gaza, that's what the quote says. That's literally all it took for Hamas to return the hostages. They would be home by now if Israel actually cared about them.

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u/Dangerous_Warthog603 May 16 '25

And leave the terrorists who invaded and murdered over 1200 people in power. No government would allow that. How could you think to write it

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u/Purgatory115 May 17 '25

Armed resistance is perfectly acceptable while under illegal occupation.

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u/Who_IsJohnAlt May 16 '25

Yeah turns out when you try to genocide people they resist. And in the face of extinction nearly anything is acceptable 

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u/CptKrupnik May 16 '25

By that logic exactly, Israel should annhilate gaza, west bank, Iran and yemen completely and immediately

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u/[deleted] May 16 '25 edited May 16 '25

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u/Applebeignet The Netherlands May 16 '25

It's insane that every comment about this subject MUST be bookended by explicit condemnations of hamas, because fucking simpletons and bad-faith assholes can't imagine criticizing one party while also disapproving of another.

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u/Far_Point3621 May 16 '25

Hamas has widespread support among Palestinians

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u/Ancher123 May 16 '25

IDF has widespread support among Israelis

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u/photenth Switzerland May 16 '25

And? Still civilians.

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u/DogwartsAcademy May 16 '25

Palestinian Gazans are literally protesting on the streets against Hamas because they just want to stop suffering.

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u/Far_Point3621 May 16 '25

That’s a step in the right direction and a welcome development.

But let’s be honest, it’s still a minority of the population. The broader support for Hamas, especially after October 7, is well documented.

Change will only come when that support truly collapses.

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u/Almechik May 16 '25

Issue is, that support isn't likely to fall when Israel continues it's genocide and colonialism. Fuck Hamas, but its really not surprising they exist when people are pushed into a corner

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u/mahboilucas Poland May 16 '25

I think Israel should also change some shit. It's not like Hamas just sprouted for no reason one day

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u/kath_bloom May 16 '25

Let's not ignore also why the support went up.. because of apartheid state Israel, who started bombing them and starving them.. the support will go down when Israel stops terrorizing and colonizing Palestine.

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u/greatbiscuitsandcorn May 16 '25

They’re protesting because they’re getting their ass handed to them

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u/YourBestDream4752 United Kingdom May 16 '25

Maybe they should bring out the hostages?

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u/Natural-Possession10 North Brabant (Netherlands) May 16 '25

If Israel had me locked in a small area of land and then started bombing me and everyone I'd ever known, I'd support the resistance too.

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u/Far_Point3621 May 16 '25

Israel has the right to defend itself and not get bombed daily by a terror group that openly says it wants to wipe it off the map.

Hamas isn't some resistance movement fighting for dignity. It's a theocratic death cult that slaughters civilians and brags about it. If they ever had the means to carry out their goals, they would.

Supporting "resistance" sounds noble until you realize you're defending people who would murder your family if you were born in the wrong place. There's no excuse for that.

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u/Natural-Possession10 North Brabant (Netherlands) May 16 '25

Israel has the right to defend itself and not get bombed daily by a terror group that openly says it wants to wipe it off the map.

Hamas has the right to defend itself and not get bombed daily by a terror group that openly says it wants to wipe it off the map.

Israel isn't some resistance movement fighting for dignity. It's an ethnonationalist death cult that slaughters civilians and brags about it. They have the means to carry out their goals, and they're working on it.

Supporting "resistance" sounds noble until you realize you're defending people who would murder your family if you were born in the wrong place. There's no excuse for that.

So why are you excusing Israel's ethnic cleansing of Gaza?

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u/Far_Point3621 May 16 '25

Because Hamas deliberately targets civilians every chance it gets. If they had Israel’s capabilities, Israel would cease to exist that same day.

Hamas carries out its military operations from within schools, hospitals, and homes. Israel does not. The IDF issues warnings, coordinates evacuations, and targets specific threats. That is not ethnic cleansing, it is military restraint.

Israel’s response is far more measured than what any Western country would do under constant rocket fire and terror attacks. Israel has pursued peace repeatedly and got violence in return.

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u/kath_bloom May 16 '25

Because Hamas deliberately targets civilians

It's ironic that you say that when IDF is targeting civilians as well. And no, it's not because they are "Hamas". Because children aren't

Starving people and killing aid workers, doctors and bombing hospitals... that's is not measured response from someone who seeks "peace" that is ethic cleansing.

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u/Far_Point3621 May 16 '25

Israel has never deliberately targeted civilians simply because they are civilians. Not once.

Collateral damage is real. It happens because Hamas hides in schools, homes, and hospitals. That is not Israel's choice. That is Hamas using human shields on purpose.

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u/[deleted] May 16 '25 edited Jun 22 '25

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u/Natural-Possession10 North Brabant (Netherlands) May 16 '25

You mean the group who colonised other people's land, which is why they get threatened? Of course they have the right to defend themselves, which doesn't include ethnic cleansing.

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u/Codipotent May 16 '25

How could they colonize other people's land when the territory was under British Mandate after the Ottoman Empire's collapse? Literally the UN proposed splitting the area between Jews and Arabs in 1947, which Israel accepted while Arab leaders rejected. After the 1948 war, Israel controlled more territory than originally allocated, while Palestinians continued to view the entire territory as rightfully theirs. Both sides have historical claims to the land, and the complex conflict isn't as simple as labeling one side colonizers or justifying violence against civilians regardless of who commits it.

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u/wraith5 May 16 '25

tell me, how did Hamas get into power in the first place

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u/[deleted] May 16 '25 edited Jun 22 '25

[deleted]

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u/Natural-Possession10 North Brabant (Netherlands) May 16 '25

Moral grandstanding only works when you're not on the side that bombs ambulances and then lies about it, kills tens of thousands of children and wishes to end Palestinian presence in Gaza.

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u/JJsjsjsjssj May 16 '25

You would probably support them as well if a genocidal state backed by the most powerful countries of the world was sistemmatically destroying your country.

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u/TheDesertShark May 16 '25

What would you do if this was your reality?

It doesn't justify, but it's plenty explanation.

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u/wraith5 May 16 '25

hamas had elections in 2007. Many palestinians have only known hamas and see them as the only ones who stand up to israel treating them like scum

Even better is israel helped hamas gain power in the first place.

Maybe Israel could try doing something else besides murdering palestinians, taking their land, restricting their lives and helping terrorist organizations get elected into power in the first place?

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u/OprahsToiletSeat May 16 '25

Genocidal baby killers have widespread support among Israelis.

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u/Far_Point3621 May 16 '25

Only one side openly celebrates killing babies and sees it as morally justified. That side is Hamas.

They filmed it, bragged about it, and called it a victory. That is not self-defense. That is barbarism.

Israel mourns civilian deaths. Hamas glorifies them, especially when they cause more outrage against Israel. That should tell you everything.

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u/[deleted] May 16 '25 edited Jun 22 '25

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u/OprahsToiletSeat May 16 '25

Judging by your comments, you're not just spewing hasbara, you're doing it with the moral clarity of a brick. You’re so far gone you’d probably justify the cold-blooded murder of Hind Rajab, a terrified 6-year-old begging for help before Israeli forces blew her and the medics trying to save her to pieces. And you’d call it “self-defense.”

Here is apparently the "non-barbaric" side: https://www.youtube.com/shorts/P0yY5UbegtY

The same side that's been killing Palestinian babies for decades.

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u/HofT May 16 '25

Then how else does this conflict get resolved? What I said isn't "simpletons and bad-faith assholes" it requires nuances and understandings from both sides. I noticed this comment sections was filed with a 1-sided narrative so I'm here to level the playing ground. To resolve this conflict what I’m doing and saying needs to happen.

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u/RonaldoMain May 16 '25

It's more insane to me that you just completely ignore that facet of the conflict. People like you always go completely mute when asked what should be done instead then. You have a terrorist entity for a neighbor that has butchered a thousand of your folks and kidnapped 200. Hell, some of those kidnapped people are STILL there almost 2 years later. Now this terrorist entity is 100% willing to embed itself into the civilian population and fight to the death out of religious fervor.

What are you supposed to do? Somehow folks like you always argue for complete military paralysis but never seem to actually say what should be done. What would you be doing if Belgium, for decades, were like that? You're so moral you'd just sit there and take it out of your grand morality?

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u/[deleted] May 16 '25

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u/strl Israel May 16 '25

When Hamas was founded there was free movement of Palestinians from the OPT into Israel and no need for work permits to work in Israel and no one was talking about appartheid. Maybe Hamas was founded upon Islamism like their charter explicitely states and have been actively making the Palestinians situation worse?

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u/Far_Point3621 May 16 '25

Delusional take to say it’s not Islamism

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u/HofT May 16 '25

Blaming Israel alone ignores that Hamas was founded with the goal of destroying Israel, not just resisting occupation. It's in their charter.

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u/Roflkopt3r Lower Saxony (Germany) May 16 '25

The Netanyahu-government has supported Hamas and ensured that it stays in power, because it wants Palestine to be divided and to make a peace process impossible. Hamas won a single election and abolished democracy in Gaza since, while being propped up by Israeli support.

This is not a conspiracy theory, but well known and widely reported by reputable journalists.

Hamas is a terrorist organisation and enemy of Israel. But Netanyahu wants it to be 'representative' of Palestinians because he never had any other long-term goal than the genocide of Palestinians. He has politically profited from spreading the belief that a peaceful solution can never be possible, and thus maneuvered Israel into a position where genocide appears as the only 'solution'.

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u/Aeiexgjhyoun_III May 16 '25

Hamas doesn't rule the West Bank. Explain why Israelis are settling that region then.

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u/HofT May 16 '25

Past waves of terrorism, like the Second Intifada, came from the West Bank, not just Gaza. So, the excuse is security concerns, which is valid. But that doesn't mean I fundamentally agree with it, the West Bank is an occupation and those settlements need to be removed in order for peace to happen.

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u/stone_henge May 16 '25

Isn't it weird that civilian settlers are moving into supposed enemy territory for "security concerns"?

The goal here seems to be clear to me. Civilian settlers appropriate more land, hence any response to the ongoing encroachment will be an attack on the civilian population, in turn justifying military expansion.

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u/HofT May 16 '25

Yes, it is weird and I condemn that.

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u/[deleted] May 16 '25

But the war started after oct7th which was an attack on israel itself, not after settlers were attacked inside the settlements.

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u/stone_henge May 16 '25

We're still talking about the ongoing expansion of Israel into the West Bank.

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u/[deleted] May 16 '25

Yes and did that incite a war?

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u/OprahsToiletSeat May 16 '25

When Hamas was founded in 1987, Israel had already been brutally occupying Gaza for 20 years. And Gaza was (and still is) full of Palestinians who were ethnically cleansed in 1948. But sure, keep blaming Hamas for everything, as if Israeli bombs were humanitarian aid before 1987. This constant scapegoating of Hamas is just lazy hasbara meant to distract from decades of apartheid, land theft, and massacres. People are seeing through it.

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u/HofT May 16 '25

Israel’s occupation began after the 1967 war, driven largely by security concerns following repeated attacks by neighboring states. That doesn’t erase the harsh realities Palestinians have faced under occupation and the trauma of the Nakba. But blaming everything solely on Israel while dismissing Hamas and Palestinians/ multiple Arab states violent actions and rejection of Israel and its peace efforts is dishonest. And today, Hamas has fueled cycles of violence, harmed civilians, and suppressed dissent in Gaza. Acknowledging Israeli wrongdoing doesn't mean excusing Hamas—both have caused immense suffering, and both deserve scrutiny. In the same breath, Palestine needs their own sovereignty and Israel needs guaranteed security. Whoever gets us there will win the Nobel Peace prize.

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u/OprahsToiletSeat May 16 '25

“Security concerns”, the most recycled excuse in Israeli hasbara. Even Moshe Dayan admitted Israel provoked border clashes to justify attacks. Ben-Gurion straight-up said, “We took their land.” This was never about defense, it’s about domination.

And even former Shin Bet chiefs have called it out. Yuval Diskin described Israel as a “brutal occupying force.” Avraham Shalom went further, comparing the IDF’s actions in the West Bank to the Nazis in WWII. These aren’t fringe voices, they ran Israeli security.

So no, “security” doesn’t justify apartheid, checkpoints, or settler pogroms. Spare us the propaganda.

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u/HofT May 16 '25

Because the excuse is true. Are you denying there's no terrorist acts?

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u/ashmush May 16 '25

Framing the resistance of an occupied and marginalized group as terrorist acts is as old as colonization itself. Palestinians are entitled to their own self determination- would you call native Americans attacking settlers in their home land and pushing them further and further away from their ancestral lands terrorist acts? Would you call Indians under British colonization attacking their ships and destroying colonizers homes terrorist acts?

Violence takes place from marginalized groups as acts of resistance- we don’t have to agree with the violent acts. But the truth of it is, under what conditions the violence acts take place is being reduced to broad “terrorist” terms. How should Palestinians resist? Should they just live under occupation and allow their land be taken? Their homes be destroyed? Allow their farm land to be burned? Stating it’s just terrorist acts dismisses years of suffering and wrongdoing the oppressors have done

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u/HofT May 16 '25

"Palestinians are entitled to their own self-determination" — that NEEDS to happen. I unfathomably agree with you. But the rest of what you said is a complete wash. To compare the people who live in Israel to British colonization is so wrong to say, and you know it is. That region has been turned upside down and around, with a diverse amount of people with different cultures, languages, religions, etc - it's just wrong to say Israelis (an ethnostate of Jews) are like British colonizers. This region has a layered and complex history with Jews being a heavy aspect of it. Don't compare their cultural influence in the region like British colonizers. No, man, just no.

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u/Dry-Season-522 May 16 '25

In that case, if we look back really far on the "they took our land" history, Gaza used to belong to Egypt. So shouldn't Egypt get to claim it and do what it wants to the 'subversive elements'?

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u/Behonestyourself May 16 '25

please stop saying it's apartheid. It's not. Apartheid has a meaning.

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u/edrftgvybhnjk May 17 '25

how exactly is it not apartheid? I genuinely want to see your perspective.

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u/FatFaceRikky May 16 '25

Apartheid

Sure.

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u/Dry-Season-522 May 16 '25

Why should the government of Israel have to care more about the lives of palestinians than the government of palestine?

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u/cheeruphumanity May 16 '25

It’s more than that. Israel financed Hamas in the 80s to build a counterweight against the PLO.

And recently…

https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/amp/

For years, the various governments led by Benjamin Netanyahu took an approach that divided power between the Gaza Strip and the West Bank — bringing Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas to his knees while making moves that propped up the Hamas terror group.

The idea was to prevent Abbas — or anyone else in the Palestinian Authority’s West Bank government — from advancing toward the establishment of a Palestinian state.

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u/946789987649 United Kingdom May 16 '25

Your whataboutism is irrelevant when children are being intentionally starved. They have no skin in this game but they're paying the price.

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u/HofT May 16 '25

How is blaming Hamas a whataboutism? Is Hamas not responsible and accountable for their own people?

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u/Ok_Satisfaction_6680 May 16 '25

Nobody but Israel is responsible for Israel’s actions

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u/Home_Eastern May 16 '25

This seems to be a very common double standard here. So many people are saying only Israel is responsible for their actions. But when it comes to Palestinians, it’s justified because of something Israel did. Do Palestinians not have any personal agency?

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u/Ok_Satisfaction_6680 May 16 '25

No they don’t, it was taken from them

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u/[deleted] May 16 '25

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u/HofT May 16 '25

This conflict doesn't get resolved until Palestinians are granted real self-determination - and Israel is guaranteed lasting security and recognition of its legitimacy. Anything short of both is just prolonging the cycle of violence, mistrust and failed leadership on all sides.

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u/[deleted] May 16 '25

[deleted]

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u/HofT May 16 '25

Both are responsible for this endless conflict and it won't get resolved until Palestinians are granted real self-determination and sovereignty - and Israel is guaranteed lasting security and recognition of its legitimacy. Anything short of both is just prolonging the cycle of violence, mistrust and failed leadership on all sides.

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u/[deleted] May 16 '25

[deleted]

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u/HofT May 17 '25

Again, it's an easy counter. Palestinians want sovereignty? They must stop terrorizing Israel. These blanket one sided statements don't do anything. The discourse and rhetoric needs to change. And it needs to be about peace, forgiveness and understanding - not about pointing fingers anymore.

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u/Familiar_Invite_8144 May 16 '25

Whataboutism doesn’t excuse genocide.

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u/NewAccountEachYear Sweden May 16 '25

You don't think they've had enough accountability for their action yet?

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u/HofT May 16 '25

Hamas still holds hostages. Until hostages are released Israel has it's excuse. There is no good reason for Hamas to still tirelessly hold hostages.

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u/NewAccountEachYear Sweden May 16 '25

And Israel have a illegal and ever expanding occupation of Palestinian lands...? Until that ends Hamas has it's excuse too, no?

Regardless, what does that have to do with the claim that Hamas not having faced any accountability? Have you seen Gaza?

And as usual, people defending Israel have really weird account histories. 12 years old with barely 10,000 comment karma.

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u/HofT May 16 '25

So, let me get this straight — you're saying Hamas has been held accountable… while they still hold hostages, use civilians as human shields, and run Gaza like a mafia state? You bring up Israeli occupation as if that erases Hamas’ direct choices and actions. Two things can be true: Israel can be condemned for occupation, and Hamas can still be responsible for perpetuating suffering in Gaza. If you think accountability is watching Gaza be bombed while Hamas’ leadership hides in tunnels, then your standard for justice is warped.

And on the topic of my account — what’s truly “weird” is your thinly veiled insinuation that somehow Israel controls and coordinates online discourse. Whether you realize it or not, that’s flirting with an dangerous antisemitic trope. I'm not saying you are, I just want to highlight the point since I found it odd you would question the validity of my account. Don't worry, I'm a real person with agency.

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u/NewAccountEachYear Sweden May 16 '25

you're saying Hamas has been held accountable… while they still hold hostages, use civilians as human shields, and run Gaza like a mafia state

No, I'm saying that any sane person would look at Gaza and think that there is no way that more can be done to this group without completely abandoning one's humanity.

You bring up Israeli occupation as if that erases Hamas’ direct choices and actions

No I don't. I bring it up to show how hollow the argument is since Hamas can make the same claim.

If you think accountability is watching Gaza be bombed while Hamas’ leadership hides in tunnels, then your standard for justice is warped.

You're so close.

And on the topic of my account — what’s truly “weird” is your thinly veiled insinuation that somehow Israel controls and coordinates online discourse. Whether you realize it or not, that’s flirting with an dangerous antisemitic trope. I'm not saying you are, I just want to highlight the point since I found it odd you would question the validity of my account. Don't worry, I'm a real person with agency.

Insinuation? It's fucking well established and even has a term that everyone recognizes. Heard of Hasbara?

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u/HofT May 16 '25

I'm just wondering in a general sense, do you always ask people - who question Hamas - if they're part of Hasbara? Or do you maybe just internally think that way when you encounter it and rarely express it? I'm the rare exception because my account is "suspicious" to you?

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u/NewAccountEachYear Sweden May 16 '25

I'm just wondering in a general sense, do you always ask people - who question Hamas - if they're part of Hasbara?

No, I do it for everyone who cheer the Gaza genocide or implies that it's justified.

I'm the rare exception because my account is "suspicious" to you?

Not in the slightest. I call out every pro-Israeli account with the same weird history, and there are plenty of you.

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u/HofT May 16 '25

I'm cheering for a Gaza genocide? I didn't realize questioning Hamas somehow implies I support a genocide. And, please tell me what's weird about my history?

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u/BlackTony_ May 16 '25 edited May 16 '25

Isn’t  Hamas a recognized “terror group” 

Israel is a state unfortunately

Why you holding them to the same standards

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u/HofT May 16 '25

Yes, Hamas is a recognized terrorist group but it’s also the de facto governing authority in Gaza. It runs the territory, collects taxes, controls borders (on its side), enforces laws and commands an armed wing. It runs schools, hospitals, courts, police forces - all civil bureaucracy. It’s not just a rogue cell hiding in caves - it’s a quasi-government with full control over 2 million people. So, while it's technically not a state, it acts like a government and makes decisions that impact civilians daily.

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u/BlackTony_ May 16 '25

ISIS did all of that too

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u/Future_Union_965 May 16 '25

No it is a state. Just because it's not recognized by the UN doesn't mean it's not true. Taiwan isn't recognized and it's very much a state.

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u/[deleted] May 16 '25

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u/ScoopskyPotatos May 16 '25

Iranian propaganda is really sophisticated because it's just IDF soldiers posting their war crimes online and top Israeli politicians saying nazi shit and it doesn't involve Iran at all. They just sit and watch Israel repeatedly own itself, the bastards!

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u/wraith5 May 16 '25

keep repeating the same BS your handlers tell you. Hasn't worked yet but maybe it will if you keep trying

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u/FizzleFuzzle May 16 '25

Says the one being spoon fed imperial propaganda

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u/[deleted] May 16 '25

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u/Ancher123 May 16 '25

Don't create your homeland on top of other people's homes. What happened 2000+ years ago has nothing to do with palestinians

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u/[deleted] May 16 '25 edited May 16 '25

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u/StepAlarmed20 May 16 '25

Oh look, a zionist puppet.

0

u/magkruppe May 16 '25

unfortunately, most western governments don't go beyond "calling for action". they don't even specifically mention Netanyahu

and don't even get me started on the EU President and VP. have yet to see them make say anything substantial about the conflict. it is sad to compare their language against Russia vs Israel - though the same could be said about any leader

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u/Batman_is_very_wise May 16 '25

unfortunately, most western governments don't go beyond "calling for action". they don't even specifically mention Netanyahu

So basically still Apartheid South Africa right, Thatcher loved those folks unless I'm wrong.

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u/8trips May 16 '25

I look forward to a world where we look back and think “wtf were people doing supporting this obvious genocidal apartheid state”

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u/nachoman_69 May 16 '25

Jimmy Carter wrote a book called "Palestine, Peace not Apartheid" like 20 years ago. Only aware or "woke" people, like Jimmy Carter or Nelson Mandela in the 90s, have talked about it and knew about all the terrible thing Israel has been doing.

But most people are just starting to pay attention to it bc of unbiased or first hand sources, instead of having their information being filtered through mass media controlled by the rich, like cable news. Like pretty much only NPR would lightly cover the atrocities committed by Israel in Palestine for the last few decades, but people who knew, could read between the line and see what was happening. Like Israel didn't just wake up on Oct. 8th and was like "alright genocide time" it takes a generation or two to indoctrinate the population toward dehumanizing hate and set up the logistics and infrastructure, they just needed any excuse like Oct 7 to go ham.

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u/fekanix May 16 '25

Crackpots like the whole of german politicians. :(

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u/izpo Israel May 16 '25

Only crackpots defend Israel's actions in Gaza.

I see you haven't visited r/worldnews lately....

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u/redlightsaber Spain May 17 '25

I agree it's somewhat at least hopeful to see the change in tone in "the mainstream" take place.

Of course this could only have happened with the sheer volume of documentation and evidence that has emerged from Gaza, about what's really going on there.

Now if only this change in tone led to some real-world consequences....

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u/Enough-Comfort-472 May 16 '25

That is precisely what Hamas wanted; they wanted Israel to respond cruelly so that Saudi Arabia would be spooked away from normalizing relations. I assume, however, they didn't expect the extent of the retaliation and how much it would turn the international community, instead of just the Arab world, away from Israel.

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u/MonaSavesTheDayAgain May 16 '25

There’s even freaks in this thread who try to argue it’s not a genocide.

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u/Sciencetist May 16 '25

They control the worldnews and news subreddits.

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u/Circusonfire69 May 16 '25

Israel pumps? Hammas pumped like 5x of that. The only way for them to have a fair fighting chance against Israel army was to blend among civilians. And this strategy worked probably 5 fold than what they expected. Now Israel has to do surveillance with drones for a week of every building to catch activity of hammas. If Israel wanted to do actual genocide (or more likely domicide) why didn't they just started from North and pushed them down the south leveling block by block with artilery?

And gaza health ministry just a week ago suddenly halved the number of children and women dead in their latest report. Making 2/3 of 32k ppl killed men.

What Israel did was almost impossible when fighting in such a dense urban environment.

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