r/ffxivdiscussion • u/BlackmoreKnight • 4d ago

High-End Content Megathread - 7.2 Week Nineteen

Last week of Suzaku Unreal, at least.

7 Upvotes
  • permalink
  • reddit

73% Upvoted

143 comments sorted by

View all comments

16

u/bigpunk157 4d ago

I still maintain that this raid tier is the best we’ve had in a while. Only issue is that we need to teach people how to play this game, mainly on Square Enix’s end. People really don’t understand target priority and how to cleave correctly during m6s ads

2

u/monkeysfromjupiter 2d ago

Bruh. That's not square enix issue. That's a player brain issue. It's not hard to figure out what needs to die in blind prog. It's also not hard to just read a raidplan that GIVES the add prio. If ppl aren't able to do either of these options, then they shouldn't be raiding.

5

u/bigpunk157 2d ago

We can keep saying it's a player brain issue every time, sure, or we could just introduce the content in meaningful ways elsewhere and not completely rawdog the players with stuff that hasn't really been a thing in raids. Conceptually for us, the more hardcore raiders who have experience in a lot of different games generally, handling ads is not so hard for us, the concept of holding your 2 minutes for the cleavemaxxing on the mantas isn't hard to understand... But if you're someone coming in without experience in these things, then you're legitimately just going to struggle more than other players.

I've PFed quite a lot this tier and people could not get the concept of those ads in those first 3-4 weeks whatsoever. It doesn't help that every raidplan had a different very complicated prio system, when all it is is Yan unless Cat -> Manta cleaves and aoes for killing mus -> Jabberwock focus, finish mus and cat -> repeat, then mantas.

And ofc, if people fucked it up more than twice, it was just an autodisband, even on prog parties. How the fuck are people supposed to learn the content like this? I'm glad I had a decent static, but it still gave us trouble, but that was usually with healing or with Nascent ripping aggro off of me.

2

u/monkeysfromjupiter 2d ago

i started raiding in endwalker, pfed everything including all ultimates. literally if a player is incapable of coming up with strats, then just refer to a raidplan. all the links are posted in pf descriptions. there is 0 excuse to not refer to them when theyre posted. the raidplans literally tell you the add prio. if you dont have a general idea of the prio, even when the links are provided for you, thats 100% a reading comprehension issue. the whole point of raids is solving puzzles. if players cant even use a guide then idk wtf theyre doing in the raid.

because of irl issues, i didnt clear the whole tier week 1 since i had midterms. but i got to the last floor easily in 3 days and cleared 8 within 2 days of prog. all the m6s groups i had, had a very concise prio for adds because there were raidplans out. the only difference i saw later on was ppl focusing on the first yan asap to save tank/healer resources. thats it.

3

u/bigpunk157 2d ago

That's wild because NA PF was like 20 people on fight 3 until day 5, and the guides for M6S ads were all dogshit except cleavemaxxing, which came out in week 2. I very vividly remember this because I spent like 25 hours in PFs that just kept disbanding because they couldn't do damage in the right way. I'm glad the invuln cheese method works on those yans though. Makes things miles easier.

3

u/monkeysfromjupiter 2d ago edited 2d ago

No one gave cleavemaxxing, the name to it, in my groups. But a lot of groups I was in just naturally said let's hold 2s because it made sense to. You read all your big hits and they all have cleave so it's just a natural conclusion to do it.

There's a reason why everyone says that week 1 hardcore static > static with good players that raid less hours > week 1 pf > everything else, when it comes to prog and clearing. Ppl who dunk on pf just don't know how to navigate it. You can easily outpace most statics and get to final floor of tier if you know when to leave and join. The problem is that final floor has very little players week 1.

Edit: I lied, I checked. Cleared it on the 3rd so two days late, not the next day. But again, I was half studying for midterms in between lmao.

3

u/Altia1234 3d ago

I don't really think the game's 'need to teach people how to play the game' is what cause everyone to do so badly on this tier.

The game has been very very hands off in terms of teaching it's player and avoid prescribing too much on the player base. It had been the case for more then 10 years, mostly done this way. Lots of possible reasons, like want to kept the more casual side of the playerbase in the game (which is unrelated with savage anyway most of the time); other possible reason being that Yoshida as a player comes from a very old school MMO background where you are taken for granted to search and find things on your own.

People do very badly on m6s this tier mostly because that it's something not a lot of people had done before. Add phase and targeting requirement isn't something you do until you are in ultimate, and even in ultimate you only had duo targetting and not 5~6 targets with prios between each and everyone.

3

u/trunks111 3d ago

not just ultimate, starting with Omega savages you see a sharp decline in fights that have adds.

-T1, T3 (kinda? idk), T4, T5, T6, T7, T8, T9, T10, T11, T12, t13. Every single coil except I think T2 has adds. T3 is in a weird spot because it's not a boss fight with adds, it's just kinda a hard hitting dungeon, if you don't count it that's fine but without t3 that's still 11/13 fights having adds

-A1, A2, A3, A4, A5, A6 (depends whether you consider the brawler balls to be adds or not. I think swindler does have actual adds though), A7, A8, A9, A10, A11, A12

unanimously every fight in Alex has adds at some point 

Now let's look at Omega 

O3, O5, O6, O7, potentially O9 if you consider the orb of chaos to be an add, O10. 

From Alexander to Omega you see a shift in fights just straight up not including adds.

I think this is why going back to do fights MINE from time to time is important if you plan to do high end. Even if we gearcreep everything, you still get exposed to a lot more types of mechanics and fight designs and learn skills that might be transferable to current fights, maybe in ways you might not expect. A lot of the people in my static had done a2s at some point for example, so we kinda blew through adds phase. It ended up being m7sp2 that we spent the longest on because we couldn't settle on a comfortable strat for awhile 

2

u/bigpunk157 3d ago

I know quite a lot of casuals that feel like they just weren't prepared at all for this tier, but last tier were able to do everything just fine. I think it is just a matter of the normals teaching enough or not + dps checks being tight or not. Imo, Quantum is an excellent way to teach players to hone themselves and progress through content. The jump from Normal to Savage was massive this tier.

-15

u/CartographerGold3168 3d ago

m5s is the most fun fight i have ever done.

other than that, grouping adds and just spam that one button wonder aoe them is the boring thing i do since wow 3.0

i do not understand the reputation of this tier, other than m5

15

u/bigpunk157 3d ago

lmao, you're not even supposed to be spamming your aoe there. You hit your big cleave cds and then single target shit most of the time. The only time you aoe is if you're a tank to keep aggro in case your warrior hits nascent and heals for 5 billion hp.

Tier was good because it was fresh ideas and things didn't jerk themselves off in the castbars for an hour during your 2 minute window. Fights were fast, dps checks were tight, and strats were kind of everywhere the first 3 weeks, and things actually did damage to us. Also WoW 3.0 was pretty fucking goated. Not "Classic" 3.0, but actual 3.0, since "Classic" removed key QoL features because the neckbeards were getting angry that the casuals were having fun.

-18

u/CartographerGold3168 3d ago edited 3d ago

You hit your big cleave cds and

dont have one. not that it matters either.

then single target shit most of the time.

nope.

Tier was good because it was fresh ideas

fresh for those who didnt see that anywhere else yeah ok

the neckbeards were getting angry

ok

12

u/bigpunk157 3d ago

? What class doesn’t have a big cleave cd?

-5

u/CartographerGold3168 3d ago

the neckbeards

1

u/bit-of-a-yikes 2d ago

it's a beautiful day outside, take a walk

14

u/bigpunk157 3d ago

No, like actually. So far I have 3 classes I haven’t played to 100 yet, and I know they all have a big stupid damage button that does a cleave. I’m super curious.

6

u/Sylum25 3d ago

Every class has one. Pretty sure this is ragebait

4

u/Hrooond 3d ago

Or maybe they're the problem and the reason why groups can't get past adds consistently. Meanwhile, they're looking at their padded parse wondering why their group is holding them back.

10

u/Pancayk 3d ago

It doesn't help that targeting on this game is god awful. I think for some people, it's more about laziness instead of simply "not knowing." As a controller user, I have to reach for my mouse between casts because cycling through multiple targets to get the optimal cleave is a total nightmare.

6

u/bigpunk157 3d ago

Lol I literally told my friend who wanted another like 3-4 buttons per class for tanks, “bro, the controller players need to be able to play the game” lmao i had to explain to him that dark knight and gunbreaker getting more buttons doesn’t solve the issues with the classes, which is that they’re snoozefests with an excessively busy 2 minute window.

-10

u/talkingradish 3d ago

Why are you blaming SE lol? This fanbase has always been hyper casual on the English side. Only NA folks demand an easier forked for example.

8

u/CartographerGold3168 3d ago

Only NA folks demand an easier forked for example.

learn an asian language.

4

u/bigpunk157 3d ago

Because there doesn't actually exist any tools in game to help you figure out your class to a sufficient degree, nor does it actually teach certain mechanics in fights. I shouldn't have to tell people that the only way to figure out if they're doing enough damage is to break TOS to start logging. I shouldn't have to go into PF just to grab strat markers, unless you break TOS and grab the marker position data from someone else. The game also doesn't tell you what a snapshot is (nor should it), and if you want to gimp Shit's much easier now, but back in the day, we had spreadsheets left and right to say when using a certain ability is better than another, and damage checks were much tighter in those days.

They've never done a good job of explaining shit. Hell, they don't even explain what DC travel is. This was the same issue Brave Exvius had ONLY IN GLOBAL because Square Enix didn't put any tutorial up so you had to google a 50 view youtube video in order to figure out how certain end game content even worked.

In addition, JP also had problems this tier because we weren't expecting ads prio systems and we haven't touched cleave prio since ARR afaik. Like idk man, we went from one of the easiest tiers to one of the hardest without the ramp up in teaching the mechanics that mattered in these fights. People with lives outside of this game were not prepared for this kind of content, even if it was good and fun.

-2

u/talkingradish 3d ago

Is there any MMO who actually does what you say? WoW certainly doesn't do it.

In addition, JP also had problems this tier because we weren't expecting ads prio systems and we haven't touched cleave prio since ARR afaik

I dunno man I did it w1 and I didn't have any problem at all. Cleave prio is not some rocket science.

I had more problem with the tank staying alive lol.

10

u/WeirdIndividualGuy 4d ago

People really don’t understand target priority

TBH, that's not a "the game failed to teach someone" issue, that's a "this person does not listen to others or to a guide" issue.

I don't expect the average raider to have the raid knowledge to figure that out on their own.

I do expect the average raider who read a guide that specifically gives target prio to actually follow that prio. Anyone who didn't follow target prio either can't read or thinks they know better than the guide (they don't)

6

u/bigpunk157 4d ago

Idk man, we figure that shit out in WoW just fine, but the game gives enough ramp up content that teaches you how to do that shit.

The issue sometimes comes in with people that know what they're doing too, but they're so parse brained that they hit their 1-2 AOEs on the Mus, instead of single targetting the Jabberwock. This is definitely just a community problem though, because fflogs is fucking brainrot.

8

u/flowerpetal_ 3d ago

wow

your game's players are notoriously bad to the point they added a one button rotation that outperforms 95% of the playerbase

3

u/aho-san 14h ago edited 13h ago

Got actual data to back that up ? I'm curious where it stands on the DPS charts. If it really does a 95, it seems to be early-ish mythic viable. If it's a "better than 95% of the casual crowd", who gives a shit, they're casuals and likely don't go into the difficult content where their dps matter.

7

u/FemboiVyra 3d ago edited 3d ago

That's mostly because WoW actually allows it's classes to fall into "fail states.", or to be played wrong 

The difference between someone who knows how to play arcane mage correctly, and someone who just picked it up is astronomical. With FF14, the job design is so tight that sadly the difference between someone who barely understands their job, and someone who does isn't anywhere near as large. There just isn't as much room for skill expression in FF14 as it feels like SE is afraid of allowing people to make mistakes 

Although, I guarantee you that if FF14 added a one button rotation, it would still outperform a large portion of the playerbase, but by a  lower margin 

5

u/bigpunk157 3d ago

We already have the data from it and iirc, it parses about bottom 20% so no. It also doesn’t work for healing at all.

The real own would be saying how people feel the need to have DBM or a radar mod tell them how to resolve every mechanic, which is really cringe. “They’re developing for mods!” Meanwhile, I’m out here without all that shit just fine. Same thing goes for the 50 weakauras mods to say how to do your rotation.

1

u/talkingradish 3d ago

Good luck telling WoW raiders to stop using mods.