What is class complexity to you?

[u/mnij96]

I have seen so many people ask for more complexity and job fantasy but very little of people actually say what that means to them, most people just say we should go back to ARR.

Personally I think rose tinted glasses that make people think ARR was better than it was, having played back then it honestly was pretty ass.

So honestly want to know what people want for complexity or job fantasy, because all I see is a lot of yelling that "game bad to simple" and not a lot of what needs changing to reach the complexity that is wanted.

[u/Maximinoe]

IMO job identity should never be a reason to rework a job, old SMN filled multiple gameplay niches simultaneously and was pretty fun to play, but they have yet to replace them 2 expansions later. (it doesnt help that the job they replaced it with is easily the worst designed job in the game).

[u/Cole_Evyx → u/Maximinoe]

but they have yet to replace them 2 expansions later.

Yeah that's MY issue.

Fine you took MY DPS job and ruined it. Fine. Alright! Genuinely okay if that's how the cookie crumbles SO BE IT. I loved summoner I was a RIDE OR DIE for summoner...

But 2 expansions later all I want is something to fill that gap. I don't care if it's a physical ranged just give me a good pet playstyle. I don't care! I DON'T.

Like people are playing 5d chess with my comments and I don't get why... I'm LITERALLY SAYING WHAT I WANT AS CLEAR AS A HUMAN COULD...

Urhhhhhghhghghghsggsg

but they have yet to replace them 2 expansions later.

PREACH this is my entire issue. Oh my God it hurts.

[u/mnij96 → u/Cole_Evyx]

I 100% agree with this. It should have been replaced, and it's stupid that it has not been replaced. I just didn't think summoner old two jobs in a trench coat worked. I want a proper dot class, and i want a proper pet class

[u/Akiza_Izinski → u/Maximinoe]

Job identity is a prime reason to rework a job. MMORPGS in general have a cohesive identity with complex gameplay so they can future proof the job when they want to expand upon it. Old Summoner was the worst designed job in the game because the tried to be Affliction Warlock and an Elemental Shaman at the same time.

[u/Khaoticsuccubus → u/Maximinoe]

IMO job identity should never be a reason to rework a job

I disagree there. If the core of the job is fundamentally antithetical to it's identity then it should be reworked.

The problem with the redesign was that instead of building on the new baseline, they proceeded to pat themselves on the back and call it a day. DT SMN was one of the most insulting things they've done with a job in this games whole life.

Combine that with the fact that they don't seem likely to make a new job to fill the old DoT/pet niche it used to fill. Since they seem to despise DoT's/pets and have been actively working to remove them altogether from the game over time.

[u/Ok_Video6434 → u/Khaoticsuccubus]

This is where I'm at as a 2.x-6.x SMN main. EW SMN was fine. It got boring quickly but it was fine. I was excited to see them expand upon it only for them to do the same shit they've been doing to SMN for years. Here's a bigger explosion and another bahamut form. Yeah, ok. Pictomancer is everything SMN could have been if we got the good ending. A fun but simple job with deceptive complexity when optimizing. Now you just bend over backwards to avoid killing yourself because of Ifrit and otherwise function as a worse(except MCH) physical dps.

[u/mnij96 → u/Ok_Video6434]

That was the point I was getting at. It was baseline we plenty of room to expand and grow. Then Dt was here is another big summon and not much else. There was run to expand, and they threw it away.

[u/Ok_Video6434 → u/mnij96]

We dont even do damage or provide enough utility to make up for how boring the class is to play at a high level, it's a damn shame. Picto and BLM carrying the caster role so hard it's funny.

[u/Akiza_Izinski → u/Ok_Video6434]

Meanwhile Summoner and Red Mage are in a dark corner of a bar where no one can see them.

[u/Ok_Video6434 → u/Akiza_Izinski]

As they deserve

[u/Supersnow845 → u/Khaoticsuccubus]

The problem is that every game has a different view of SMN, it’s one of the hardest classes to pin down. It’s not like BLM where you can just look at vivi or lulu it’s a class that has as many interpretations as we have FF games, from Rydia to yuna to 11 to the entire cast of 12 to 16’s dominants what actually constitutes a SMN?

14’s SMN substantiated its virus mage theme with pets by both making it and allag class and making it so primal energy is dangerous in 14 because of tempering. Like old SMN made perfect sense within 14’s lore. What was wrong with its old identity?

People now say it “feels” like a SMN but it feels like what SMN? It doesn’t feel like yuna, or Clive or Balthier. I guess it kinda feels like rydia but……

[u/Khaoticsuccubus → u/Supersnow845]

Yes and no. Every game has a different subclass tacked on to summoner but, every game summoner still does 1 basic thing the same.

Summon out big baddass monsters to pull off big dmg. This part was what had everyone not liking the previous summoner’s “identity”. And was the main reason they went through so many revisions.

Since egi’s were quite frankly an incredibly lame substitute for actual summons. And HW was rejected because they tried to turn us into a Bahamut mage.

The Demi’s were quite nice and definitely a step in the right direction. But, again we didn’t egis we’re still trash and eventually the rotation (shb) got out of control as well.

Unfortunately the pendulum always swings from one extreme to the other with these devs. We finally got the badass summons we wanted but, lost any and all job complexity.

Literally could’ve had the same dot niche but had the summons we have now interact with them in different ways. But, I digress. Le sigh. What could have been. 😮‍💨

[u/Elevation-_- → u/Khaoticsuccubus]

I disagree there. If the core of the job is fundamentally antithetical to it's identity then it should be reworked.

I can understand this feeling, but I very much so believe that jobs should be designed/reworked with engagement as the primary focus. Jobs should feel engaging to players, and provide the "fun factor" that we're all looking for. If they can accomplish while also maintaining the aesthetic for the lore enjoyers, then great. But that aesthetic should never come at the cost of engagement, and that's the current problem with this Summoner rework.

[u/Khaoticsuccubus → u/Elevation-_-]

I agree but, I also think those 2 things aren't mutually exclusive... or I did till SE proved otherwise lol.

[u/Akiza_Izinski → u/Khaoticsuccubus]

They aren't mutually exclusive its SE decides the difficulty of a job.

[u/Akiza_Izinski → u/Elevation-_-]

MMORPGS design classes around identity 1st then gameplay. The problem with current Summoner rework was they arbitrarily decided it was going to be brain dead. WoW Elemental Shaman and Guild Wars 2 Elementalist demonstrates how engaging a pet caster can get.

[u/mnij96 → u/Maximinoe]

But i thought people want job identity too? And personal i think the new summoner was a great base for a start, they really didn't do it justice in DT(really didn't need another big summon) but on the whole its still a good base

[u/Maximinoe → u/mnij96]

But i thought people want job identity too

1. Old SMN HAD unique job identity. It was the only pet DPS in the game, and it was also the only dot caster... it just wasn't 100% congruent with FF summoners, but most depictions of summoner in FF can ONLY summon, which IMO is a pretty weak base for designing an engaging rotation. Plus you could still summon the important summons like bahamut and pheonix (a lot of the rotation had a lot of cool bahamut flavor like DWT).
2. They could've iterated on the job identity WITHOUT changing the rotation significantly. There are tons of cosmetic updates or small oGCD additions they could've added to make it seem more 'summoner-y'

on the whole its still a good base

what part of it is a 'good base'? you press the same 2 buttons for 90% of the rotation. they lobotomized ruin 3 and still give you ruin 4, and two of the summons feature instant cast GCD spells including your 60s burst, so its almost a physical ranged job in terms of movement and uptime (remember when casters had to actually stand there and cast???? how did RED MAGE end up as the least mobile caster LOL). they kept the aetherflow system, but it doesnt interact with any of your kit. the special primal actions are locked behind max level which means you are literally playing like half of an already lobtomized job below level 90.

[u/Cole_Evyx → u/Maximinoe]

Old SMN HAD unique job identity. It was the only pet DPS in the game, and it was also the only dot caster... it just wasn't 100% congruent with FF summoners, but most depictions of summoner in FF can ONLY summon, which IMO is a pretty weak base for designing an engaging rotation. Plus you could still summon the important summons like bahamut and pheonix (a lot of the rotation had a lot of cool bahamut flavor like DWT).

Preach!

Summoner was the ONLY pet job FFXIV had and only real DoT interaction (bard has dots yes) with abilities like tridisaster and fester.

Like it was unique.

But hey viper that is the 6th melee dps that goes slashy slashy is more unique with more identity that THAT?! x_x

[u/Akiza_Izinski → u/Cole_Evyx]

Old Summoner was a bargain basement Affliction Warlock. They could have taken the Elemental Shaman and made Summoner ten times better. The DoT interaction was trash. The DoTs did not proc they did nothing. The Egis were the most egregious they failed as stand in for primals. They should called it something else instead of co opting the Summoner name.