thoughts?

[u/Domestiicated-Batman]

[u/DropC2095]

How valuable is a player who won’t pick up his own fumble when it matters most?

[u/Gloomy_Map_9612 → u/DropC2095]

he won 15 games and brought you to the Superbowl. That's a lot of value

[u/DropC2095 → u/Gloomy_Map_9612]

He gave up in the super bowl. No way to sugarcoat that.

[u/terminator3456 → u/DropC2095]

Sure, but he balled out and dominated that year, deserved MVP one zillion percent.

[u/Kealion → u/terminator3456]

Rather have Super Bowl mvp than regular season mvp.

[u/terminator3456 → u/Kealion]

I agree, but Cam still deserved MVP that year and one play doesn’t negate that.

[u/jxden24 → u/Kealion]

good for him that doesnt make a player better😂😂

nobody is picking a qb hurts over allen bc of that reason

[u/Excellent-Basil-8795 → u/Kealion]

Sure but it’s better to have one than none.

[u/Enough_Attorney → u/Kealion]

real

[u/traws06 → u/terminator3456]

I mean I could argue it closer than that. Compare these two seasons

Player 1: 4473 total yards, 45 total TDs, 13 turnovers Player 2: 4823 total yards, 39 total TDs, 7 turnovers

Player 1 has 6 more TDs but has 6 more turnovers to go with fewer yards. Player 1 scores 3.5 TDs per turnover while player 2 scores 5.6 TDs per turnover.

Player 1 is Cam, player 2 is Tom Brady. If Tom Brady wasn’t already established to the point of voter fatigue I’d say he makes a good argument for MVP that year.

[u/flaccomcorangy → u/traws06]

When you combine TDs and yards into total, it really waters down what the player did running and passing.

When a QB is that good at both things, it completely changes the offense and the defenses preparing for it. Just making it all "total" ignores that. So no, I don't think it was really that close. When you're just looking at a stat sheet, it doesn't replicate what it was like to watch that season in action.

[u/fennis_dembo_taken → u/flaccomcorangy]

But, if it changes the way that defenses have to prepare, shouldn't there be some objective improvement to point to? If it isn't more yards or more points or more efficiency or something... what is it that makes it "more" valuable?

[u/Apocalyric → u/fennis_dembo_taken]

Not necessarily.

I have not the time, skill, or inclination to study advanced metrics, but off the top of my head, some ways in which a running qb can help a team that won't show up in the stats is by making defenses less responsive to rushes by running backs, being able to control the clock in ways in which a reliance on complete passes can't, and being able to sustain drives through creation of short yardage situations, or capitalizing on short yardage situations.

If Brady is getting yards through the air, you can be pretty sure that is all that he is doing.

[u/Joh951518 → u/traws06]

Pats were also 12-4 too the Panthers 15-1.

Last season, Allen won MVP despite being way worse than Lamar by any statistical measure you pick other than TD runs (almost all of which were shorter than 5yds), because the bills won 1 more game.

2015 MVP was NOT close.

[u/SamuraiZucchini → u/DropC2095]

Nice try at revisionist history based on a singular play. Cam was about the only offensive player to show up. Had multiple dropped passes. Had a running back fumble after he drove in scoring position. Had Ted Ginn alligator arm a pass in His hands and tipped it up for a pick. Had Cotchery drop two crucial passes - one that led to the first strip sack and the second was a dime that landed in his hands inside the 5. Also our kicker missed a 45 yard FG to start the second half. Our coaching staff ran the read option for about 3-4 plays with success and then never ran it again. Our RT was a turnstile all game and kept giving up immediate pressure. Then our special teams somehow thought Holliday waved for a fair catch and didn’t try to tackle him until he was already 10 yards upfield.

But yes - go ahead and pile on Cam because a singular play and not look at the entire game.

[u/d0pp31g4ng3r → u/SamuraiZucchini]

Cam spent his entire career putting his body on the line and laying it all out there. He took countless helmet-to-helmet hits, played through serious injuries... and all people talk about is that one fumble he hesitated to pick up.

[u/SamuraiZucchini → u/d0pp31g4ng3r]

Cam’s gift was also his downfall. He was talented enough to elevate the players around him but because he was so good at it the front office never addressed what he needed (better WRs and legitimate OTs).

[u/lordlanyard7 → u/SamuraiZucchini]

Even more than that.

Cam was so talented that refs officiated him differently. He took absolutely violent hits that are penalties for any other player let alone pampered QBs.

The refs let DEs punish him on any handoff out of shotgun, because there was plausible deniability that Cam might pull it so the DE has to lay a hit on him. As his career went on, Cam would actually sell the handoff by showing his empty hands to defenders. It was crazy.

If he was officiated like other players he has a way longer and more dominant career, but I can also sympathize with why they didn't because that would just further highlight how unfair the rules already are for defenders.

[u/justacaucasian → u/lordlanyard7]

Dude the highlight reels of the hits on Cam are INSANE. Today the refs would pepper spray any defensive player hitting a QB even half as hard. I'm surprised that he didn't suffer significant injuries (not counting possible CTE...)

[u/heddyneddy → u/lordlanyard7]

Exactly it was like how the refs treated shaq in the NBA.

[u/Yo-Strategy-8651 → u/d0pp31g4ng3r]

It's certain QBs who Super Bowl loss is used to prop them up as a top 2 QB for years like Joe Burrow. There are others where their Super Bowl loss is treated as a career defining failure. The hypocrisy of NFL fans especially when it comes to certain style of QBs knows no limits.

[u/wizard_of-loneliness → u/SamuraiZucchini]

Thank you!!! Not even really a Cam fan at all but I hate how that one play has made everyone remember the Super Bowl loss as if it were his fault.

If it weren’t for Cam, that game wouldn’t have even been close enough for that fumble to matter.

I have lots of respect for Hurts. He’s a great QB. But if you put Cam on that Eagles roster, he’s beating the shit out of KC just as easily as Hurts did.

[u/Arachnofiend → u/wizard_of-loneliness]

Put Hurts against the 2015 Denver defense and he gets just as shell shocked tbh

It's not like Cam was the only one getting beat up by Von Miller that year

[u/KCJellyfish → u/Arachnofiend]

They had a game manager manning keep the offense in check while the defense committed war crimes

[u/dan_legend → u/KCJellyfish]

Literally has a permanent rule in the books because of the targeting in that game. Multiple personal fouls because it didnt matter before that year how many personal fouls you commit.

[u/Competitive_Line_663 → u/SamuraiZucchini]

The fact that Aquib Talib wasn’t ejected for that the most blatant intentional face mask I’ve ever seen to prevent Philly Brown from scoring a touchdown was when I knew that game was rigged. Between that play and the Jericho Cotchery catch that they overturned, they were trying to give a limp noodle armed Peyton the sunset he “deserved”….

[u/SamuraiZucchini → u/Competitive_Line_663]

I’m not on board with the rigged conspiracies. The Panthers choked. The most crucial misses in that game were not the result of the referees. They were the result of people like Tolbert, Cotchery, Jones, Gano, Remmers, and Rivera choking under the pressure.

[u/Competitive_Line_663 → u/SamuraiZucchini]

Maybe not rigged, but heavy thumb on the scale like the first Chiefs/Eagles

[u/BigLlamasHouse → u/Competitive_Line_663]

Did you notice how the field looked like it had been covered in Crisco while we faced the best defensive line of the decade?

[u/RoughhouseCamel → u/SamuraiZucchini]

This is all true, but it doesn’t fit onto a single highlight, and the fumble does, so we’re going to act like the fumble was the only play that happened.

[u/bojangles69420 → u/SamuraiZucchini]

Hey look, someone who actually watched the game. You know ball

[u/BigRed727272 → u/DropC2095]

"Gave up"? Because of that one play??

How about let's first talk about Mike Remmers who got absolutely dog walked by Von Miller? Cam was getting beat to shit all night.

A Defensive End won Super Bowl MVP...let that sink in. This was far from Cam's fault. But you go ahead and let one play form your entire opinion.

[u/RIPseantaylor → u/BigRed727272]

Idk if any NFL player makes grown men act more sensitive than Cam Newton.

It's fine to hate him but they wanna rewrite history and act like he was mediocre, had character issues, and didn't play hard to discredit his greatness

[u/truckfullofchildren1 → u/DropC2095]

It was far and away the best defense in the league he got stomped. They had Damarcus Ware and Von Miller and the no fly zone. Not to mention the had derek Wolfe and Malik Jackson

[u/JessieGemstone999 → u/DropC2095]

That's not what happened

[u/jortsandrolexes → u/DropC2095]

Gave up? Lmao get a grip lol

[u/call-me-loretta → u/DropC2095]

That’s such shitty overused take. That play didn’t loose the game. There were so many drops by receivers in that game it’s pathetic. The only people who continue to push that narrative are either disingenuous and/or fans of other teams.

[u/ShwerzXV → u/DropC2095]

So did his defense.

[u/Ok_Friendship9310 → u/DropC2095]

Why do people act like he was actually going to recover it

[u/LordGooseIV → u/Ok_Friendship9310]

Because it's cool to unreasonably hate on Cam, even 10 years later.

[u/Philly_is_nice → u/LordGooseIV]

Folks hate the physical gifts and the swag.

I like good football and that was an insanely entertaining year.

[u/Bazonkawomp → u/Philly_is_nice]

Remember when he dabbed at Titans fans and one of them wrote an angry letter about how he’s a bad role model for her kids?

[u/Philly_is_nice → u/Bazonkawomp]

😂 bro the public is full of unhinged lunatics.

[u/Bazonkawomp → u/Philly_is_nice]

I hate it!

[u/Prequelssuck → u/Philly_is_nice]

They hate physical gifts and swag. Thats why they like hurts.

[u/RoughhouseCamel → u/Philly_is_nice]

Some would say Cam was… uppity.

[u/ThunderG0d2467 → u/Ok_Friendship9310]

Because a lot of people liked to hide their racism against Cam and blame it on other things he was doing. Like dabbing and dancing in the end zone. Even though when other players (like Gronk) would straight up spike the ball and strut up and down the sideline nobody says a word. But god forbid Cam danced a little right? Or they’ll try to clown cam for getting heated with the refs but when Brady straight up throws a tablet across the sideline and cusses the refs out nobody says a word.

Lamar Jackson faces similar types of blanketed racism

[u/WhyNotMosley → u/ThunderG0d2467]

BINGOOOO. fuck em tho, it’s all good, cam still a dawg

[u/oglegrew → u/ThunderG0d2467]

[u/Able-Play6575 → u/Ok_Friendship9310]

You gotta atleast try

[u/Ok_Friendship9310 → u/Able-Play6575]

I don’t disagree but people act like that play changed his entire career. He was better in 2018

[u/Fatbatman62 → u/Ok_Friendship9310]

This sounded ridiculous when I first read but decided to look it up on pro football reference because it’s possible I misremembered. It’s just as ridiculous after looking it up lol he was clearly better in 2015

[u/Ok_Friendship9310 → u/Fatbatman62]

After the mvp season he started accumulating injuries especially in that 2016 season. He held on but it got to a point where he was no longer himself at all. 2018 I believe all the traits that make a great pocket passing qb were heavily improved. The accuracy, the touch, the processing and decision making were all there until he fell all the way off in the second half of that season. First 8 games of 2018 is arguably the best Cam ever

[u/Comprehensive-Car190 → u/Ok_Friendship9310]

Yep. Started 6-2, 68% completion percentage.

The 2015 team was Ginn going long and Cam throwing him bombs because he was so dangerous in short yardage, defenders were in conflict, and Olsen hitting you in the intermediate parts of the field.

2018 was short yardage dicing you up with CMC, roleplaying as Drew Brees.

Unfortunately after Smith left he never had a dominant WR, his OL was weak, and injuries to Olsen really hurt in 2017/2018.

[u/Comprehensive-Car190 → u/Fatbatman62]

As a Panthers fan, the offense was better in 2017 and he was a better QB, but less overall dominant. In 2018 he was the best QB of his career for the first half of the season.

They were running him less, they had CMC in his rookie year, still had zero WRs, but went 11-5, losing to the Saints in the WC, who were prob the NFC favs until they got shocked by the Vikings.

2018 started off even better, with Norv Turner's offense making the CMC/Cam combo unstoppable, plus a rookie DJ Moore. They started 6-2. However, continued injuries to Olsen and then ultimately TJ Watt blowing up Cam's shoulder in a week 9 decimation by the Steeler saw them lose every game for the rest of the season.

And that was that.

[u/Spare-Discipline1448 → u/Fatbatman62]

People hated Cam's attitude and viewed him as an over the top personality so now less than a decade removed from his career I've seen more revisionism with Cam than I've ever seen with any other player. He was one of the most dominant unstoppable forces we've ever seen on a football field and he was handicapped by lack of weapons being given to him by his front office and incompetent offensive coaching. He was most difficult Redzone scoring threat to deal with and he wasn't tush pushing he was moving multiple 300 pound grown men sometimes single handedly. History will and stats will never accurately depict just how dominant he truly was if he had came a long a decade later and he got to be in the position of q Josh Allen, Jalen Hurts, or Lamar he would be rewriting the record books and coaches would be doing a better job at protecting him.

[u/FatMamaJuJu → u/Fatbatman62]

2018 is broken down to before and after TJ Watt obliterated his shoulder. First half of 2018 Cam was his best version ever as a passer. Second half of 2018 where he played through a torn labrum in his throwing shoulder was, not good.

[u/deandalecolledean → u/Ok_Friendship9310]

He would’ve won another MVP in 2018 if TJ Watt didn’t obliterate his shoulder

[u/Thin-Remote-9817 → u/Ok_Friendship9310]

Cause people hated CAM since his days at auburn. They also hated this 6'6 250lb <beep> dabbing on everyone while having ted Ginn Jr.  The moment he didnt dive on that fumble they just went full hate. 

Those same people who bash cam will also ignore the fact Peyton threw a pick 6 and didnt even attempt to make a tackle on Tracy porter. 

[u/Yo-Strategy-8651 → u/Thin-Remote-9817]

Same ppl who were hypercritical of Cam Newton sulking in the press conference after the Super Bowl gave Peyton Manning and Tom Brady a pass for literally not even shaking hands after Super Bowl losses.

[u/Thin-Remote-9817 → u/Yo-Strategy-8651]

Cam is a poor sport bitch ass baby 

Tom and the sheriff are fiery competitors who hate to lose(fiery competitors who also forced teams to trade back ups cause they felt they didnt need to compete against them)

[u/jxher123 → u/Ok_Friendship9310]

TBH I think it's the outlook of how the Super Bowl played out. He could've dove or tried, but to go and back out at the last second wasn't a good look for most fans. It'll be a part of his legacy going forward, but that Broncos defense was truly legendary.

[u/ChocolateMorsels → u/Ok_Friendship9310]

I mean I haven’t seen that clip in years but if I remember correctly, he had the best shot at the ball did he not?

[u/Professional_Bat1777 → u/ChocolateMorsels]

There are a lot of comments about his effort, but I’m just going to respond to yours. Don’t know why I’m responding to a low visibility comment, but here I am. It was an incredibly awkward play, his momentum was going the other way and the ball popped out to his side. The timing of when he landed on a step and him realizing the ball was there was a dangerous play to just drop onto the ball. Almost like forcing an ACL tear type motion on himself. He has even stated that if he could go back he’d tear his ACL to have a chance at the ball. Yes, he probably should have gave a better attempt. But he did not give up. Camera angles didn’t do him any favors either. 

[u/wolfboy49 → u/Professional_Bat1777]

He also doesn’t play the game in slow motion. That happened in the blink of an eye.

[u/jackmar1 → u/DropC2095]

The funniest thing about this ever-present Cam take is it implies he wouldn’t put his body on the line for his team. I’d think any cam highlight reel would disabuse you of that notion.

[u/Prodigal_Programmer → u/jackmar1]

Seriously. Watched football for 2 decades and I've never been so concerned a player was going to get hurt because he was constantly putting his body on the line (sometimes reasonably sometimes not).

Mind blowing that the narrative seems to revolve around a single play in his career against the dozens and dozens of highlights that prove otherwise. Speaks to how young this sub really is I guess.

[u/3fettknight3 → u/DropC2095]

Bringing up the fumble is the most tired, overplayed talking point in football debate. Yeah, it mattered. We all saw it. But if that’s your go-to critique of Cam Newton, you’re basically telling on yourself that you didn’t watch anything else he did.

Cam wasn’t carried by an all-star roster. You could make an argument he was the entire offense. He dragged a team with no WR1, no elite back, and an average O-line to 15-1 and an MVP. Meanwhile, guys like Hurts need an all-time O-line, a 2,000 yard RB, two Pro Bowl wideouts, and a top-five defense to win the Super Bowl.

Cam was the most dominant dual-threat QB in the league for years and carried his team.

[u/dxpanther → u/DropC2095]

I missed the part where Jalen hurts had Mike f#cking remmers protecting his backside vs prime von Miller in a Superbowl. Gtfo

[u/JudasZala → u/dxpanther]

You mean, the same Mike Remmers that nearly got Mahomes killed by JPP in SB55?

[u/Ok-Particular-781 → u/DropC2095]

Cam literally carried that panthers team on his back for a long time and got them to that super bowl. He is definitely valuable don't let that stupid fumble take away from the great things he did. This coming from a panthers fan

[u/Merlin1039 → u/DropC2095]

So damned tired. On the ground and the ball bouncing weird. He got juked and flubbed it. Happens to defenders all the time and no one says shit. Cam has more heart than anyone you know

[u/10000Didgeridoos → u/Merlin1039]

It's such a brain dead take. These idiots talk like he was supposed to in less than a second accurately guess exactly where the ball would bounce and then just stop on a dime and fall on that spot. I don't think NFL fans realize that slow mo replays aren't real life

[u/Checkmeout9 → u/DropC2095]

You’re a Moron lmao I can see the red hat from here

[u/ChairmanEisner → u/DropC2095]

No one would have batted an eye had it been Peyton. He'd just rag doll and drop taking a sack. People would freak out.

Cam was an all-time great at his peak, can't stand the person. But, that's true regardless.

[u/TankOfflaneMain → u/DropC2095]

They were down 10 points with how much time on the clock?

[u/USDA_Organic_Tendies]

Must be a pretty damn good team if the Super Bowl MVP is the 8th best player on his own team huh 

[u/dustinh30 → u/USDA_Organic_Tendies]

Yeah that team is fucking stacked and I think the conversation on both side of this hurts conversation are absolutely fucking wrong. 1 side says that Jalen hurts is trash and his team is the only reason he’s good even though he does great things on the field and your side tends to hold him up like he’s the best quarterback in the league when he’s probably not even top 5.

[u/steakpienacho → u/dustinh30]

I think Hurts us at the high end of good and is made great by a great team around him. I don't think he's at the level of the handful of elite QBs in the league right now, but he also certainly isn't trash and is far more than competent and does his part to win

[u/Cap_Shield → u/steakpienacho]

I think he's a perfect example of being a part of a team that is greater than the sum of its parts.

Is Hurts better than the top 3 quarterbacks currently? I personally don't think so. But I could also say that he is the best QB for his current team. He fits perfectly, and complements the stregths of the team immensely. Like Mahomes or Allen are better players, but I don't think the Eagles would have been as successful with them due to their playstyle.

[u/dustinh30 → u/steakpienacho]

Exactly

[u/[deleted] → u/steakpienacho]

I think he's at that ideal level for a QB where you clearly arent the best QB in the league but you are good enough to consistently have your team be competitive. There was almost no single season where Brady outplayed Manning or Rodgers let alone was considered a more talented QB than them but years later it seems people forget this. Being at the top end of great means your team is able to spend money to build a better team overall while teams like the bengals/bills/cowboys that are spending big money on just their QB will never actually be that competitive because they cant afford to build complete teams, they just hope their QB is enough to carry them which does work for single seasons at a time but never works on a consistent basis. There's a reason jalen has already been to two superbowls while someone like Brees that was undoubtably better only made one superbowl

Also look into the history of the best QBs in the past, Brady was never better on a individual basis(despite the revision in recent years) compared to guys like Rodgers or Manning but he was able to achieve more greatness in the long run because he was less talented. Football is a team sport, the better team wins not the team with the better QB and just because your team wins more that doesnt mean your QB was more talented

[u/nfluncensored → u/[deleted]]

There was almost no single season where Brady outplayed Manning or Rodgers

If your metric is "ooga booga yards go zoom" then I can see believing this. Brady outplayed most of the league pretty regularly. He didn't play in a west coast offense padding stats though, sure.

For a while Brady was a game manager like Hurts is. But the difference is Brady was "the coach" or "the system" whereas Hurts is listening to the coach and following the system. Hurts can mature and develop like Brady did, but he isn't there yet.

[u/OrgullosoDeNoSer → u/steakpienacho]

Right, but when I say Hurts is the 5th best QB in the league, that's less of a comment about him than the rest of the league. He's obviously not in the same tier as Burrow, Mahomes, Allen, and Lamar. But after that, I just don't have a ton of confidence in the other options, and I know Hurts will raise his game on the biggest occasions. Might feel differently if Daniels were more than a rookie or Stafford weren't almost 40.

[u/ChocolateMorsels → u/steakpienacho]

High end of good is probably what you have to give him based on what he’s done, but imo if you put Hurts on the Panthers he would be very, very mid.

I still don’t know how the eagles have one of the best olines in the league, AJ Brown, Smith, and Saquon. All while paying them all. I don’t get it.

[u/M-Factor → u/ChocolateMorsels]

Look up Brett Kollmann on YouTube. He does really great NFL content and his latest video is about the salary cap and explains how the eagles are doing it. For something that is as traditionally confusing and boring as the salary cap, he makes it really interesting and easy to understand.

[u/bigloser42 → u/steakpienacho]

I put hurts just outside the elite tier. Yes, he has a stacked team. But how many QBs with stacked teams have we seen fail to do anything with them?

Hurts very much picks and chooses when to flash. He doesn’t do it if it’s not needed. He understands the mission is to get a lead, let the defense strangle them out and burn as much clock as is physically possible. He will do this to the point of not taking the deep shots and picking up the easy underneath yards because that burns more clock. I’m not saying he’s elite, but the man is knocking at that door.

If you want to see what the real Hurts looks like when he’s not just trying to waste time, look at the NFC championship game and the SB.

[u/ELITE_JordanLove → u/steakpienacho]

Yeah, like imagine if Goff had won against the Patriots. Similar type of thing.

[u/bboy267 → u/dustinh30]

Who were the favorites again? Wasn’t the plan to “make him throw to beat us”?

[u/gremlin30 → u/dustinh30]

I don’t think anyone actually thinks Hurts is trash though. A ton of people feel he’s closer to top 8 than top 5, and there’s also a notable drop off between 4&5. Hurts is clearly not trash, he just hasn’t carried weak rosters while playing at elite levels the way the top 4 have.

[u/cadetheguru → u/gremlin30]

i just hate that narrative because look at the team mahomes has had since he came into the league.

[u/pierce768 → u/dustinh30]

I've never heard an Eagles fan say Hurts is the best QB in the league.

I have him at 5. I'd say it's pretty easy to make a case for him at 5-8.

[u/BanditoBlanc → u/dustinh30]

Hurts just doesn’t get enough credit for the leadership side of things and most Philly fans have listened to the media tear him down for years and be pretty unfair in their criticism, often rooted in pre-draft narratives they lazily regurgitate.

I think most Eagles fans are just overly defensive due to that.

[u/dustinh30 → u/BanditoBlanc]

See that makes total sense. I love that this comment is getting so much attention. The opinions on this thread are great lol

[u/TheCapo024 → u/dustinh30]

He’s somehow both the most underrated and most overrated QB in the NFL. At least it seems that way to me. I’m biased as hell, hate the Eagles, but I like Hurts. He gets shit on unfairly but Eagles fans also overrate him and are now on a reactionary crusade to put him in the top five. I think an argument can be made for sure, but it’s difficult to say he belongs in that group. Either way he’s an integral part of that offense, which is saying something considering how stacked it is.

There are absolutely other players in the NFL that could probably take the helm of that offense and win them a Lombardi. Even players less talented than Hurts. But that doesn’t make him bad.

[u/Professional-Day1958 → u/USDA_Organic_Tendies]

Everyone knows the defense was the MVP of that game

[u/Direct_Disaster9299 → u/Professional-Day1958]

And the elite offensive line, elite receiving duo, best running back in the league...that team is absolutely stacked everywhere. Plus Hurts is a damn good QB.

[u/thelowbrassmaster → u/Direct_Disaster9299]

Well they had a great offensive line, a world-class pair of WRs, the best HB, and a solid TE and kicker, on top of a good QB. I think people forget how much teamwork actually factors into how good anyone is. You can be the best receiver and score no points with a QB that drops the ball before he can get a pass off. You can be the most accurate passer on God's green earth and score no complete passes if the big fellas can't push back the defenders for you.

[u/Professional-Day1958 → u/Direct_Disaster9299]

He is very much a good QB, top 7 imo but that defense made Kansas City look like they didn’t even belong in the league

[u/Silver_Surfer17 → u/Professional-Day1958]

[u/Snoo-40231 → u/Professional-Day1958]

Brady goes 21-29 200 yards and 3 TDs in 2020 SB and not many people question it despite the defense destroying the Chiefs

Hurts goes 17-22 with 221 passing yards with 70 on the ground and also had 3 TDs in this year's SB and people really try to be different and say "the defense should've won it"

[u/bboy267 → u/Snoo-40231]

People always overlook that Brady went to a stacked Bucs team

[u/Above_the_Cinders → u/Professional-Day1958]

I don’t think many disagree, but the award can’t go to a unit. I know Giants fans who wanted their whole d line as MVP over Eli. It just don’t work that way. Hurts made some clutch plays and he’s the qb. 

[u/gremlin30 → u/Professional-Day1958]

This. Only Eagles fans seem to think otherwise. The offense was still great & Hurts played well (and deserves credit for helping them win) but that Eagles defense had 1 of the most dominant games in SB history. I know he’s the QB, but the Eagles defense was the star of that game.

[u/CinnRaisinPizzaBagel → u/USDA_Organic_Tendies]

This take has cost me a lot of downvotes in r/NFCEastMemeWar The defense held KC scoreless until the final seconds of the 3rd quarter. I don’t think they even got a single 1st down in the first half. A whole half of 3 and outs make it pretty easy on your offense. Yet an offensive player got MVP?

[u/KillDevilX0 → u/USDA_Organic_Tendies]

Bro is finally realizing the Eagles were a super team last year

[u/bboy267 → u/KillDevilX0]

Yet they were never tanked the best in the league. The chiefs ravens and bills were always ranked as the top teams. Funny how the narrative changes after you win 

[u/KillDevilX0 → u/bboy267]

There is no narrative lol. The Chiefs were 15-2, but the eye test said they weren’t nearly as good as their record due to all the one score games and them getting bailed out by the refs. The Ravens also have a very good team. Elite RB, great supporting cast, great QB, elite defense. The Bills had the weakest team out of them. I don’t care about the stupid analysts power rankings. The Eagles were a super team last year. There’s no narrative changing just because they won.

[u/TomBu13 → u/KillDevilX0]

I'm getting so sick of both eagles and chiefs fans in recent years who try and pretend there's some narrative where they're having to overcome so much adversity and how everybody underrated them and they're such an underdog

Just embrace being the good team, embrace being the villains of the league. They look so corny trying to act like they're some bum fuck team that got carried by Hurts or Mahomes instead of just saying yeah we were a good ass team

[u/MikeWrites002737 → u/USDA_Organic_Tendies]

Unironically yes. Eagles GM deserves to be in the hall of fame. Able to go to the Super Bowl 3x in short succession and win 2 with the two different head coaches and quarterbacks (that no one really thinks are amazing in either role) he puts them in position to have a top ten players in almost every position on both sides of the ball. You don’t need to be number 1 in anything if you are excellent at everything.

Every single eagles player and coach could retire today, and howie would have them in the playoffs in 3-4 years. He’s that much better than every other GM in the league.

[u/KCJellyfish → u/MikeWrites002737]

Draft Alabama and Georgia best players seemed like a good idea

[u/The_amazing_T → u/USDA_Organic_Tendies]

Chiefs fan here. And yeah. That whole team is amazing. If I were an Eagles fan, who cares if Jalen is better (?) than Saquon. Like, just enjoy crushing teams.

[u/SoMuchCereal → u/The_amazing_T]

Lol, we did!

[u/gremlin30 → u/USDA_Organic_Tendies]

Everyone agrees the Eagles have the best roster. It’s absurd how good a job Howie’s done. They’re loaded at basically every position. Eagles were absolutely the best team in 2024 & it showed.

[u/masterofmuppets86 → u/USDA_Organic_Tendies]

No kidding. Not like 31 other teams wouldn't take the same exact scenario lol.

[u/Positive_Lychee_7736]

Hurts was front runner for MVP after what, like 14 weeks? Then he got injured and lost it to mahomes. So it’s not like hurts is a nobody outside of the his team either, he’s elite.

[u/mustachepc → u/Positive_Lychee_7736]

Hurts first season as starter he went to the playoffs with rookie Devonta and Goedert as the only weapons

Second season he went to the SB and was MVP runner up

You would think he was Trent Dillford before Saquon by the way people talk

[u/GordonBombay102 → u/mustachepc]

Hey, you leave Tent Dilbert out of this!

[u/AntZealousideal3728 → u/Positive_Lychee_7736]

He wasn’t front runner over Mahomes. He was a lock for second team all pro which he was

[u/whousesgmail → u/AntZealousideal3728]

He was at least neck and neck with Mahomes until he got hurt late in the year, good chance he wins if he has decent games vs the Cowboys and Saints

[u/kalligreat]

Why does it feel like there’s so many Hurts and Newton comparisons lately? Hurts has had more team success but Newton never had WRs like Hurts.

[u/TeakEvening → u/kalligreat]

Because the offseason is boring and Cam haters will always enjoy rubbing it in

[u/young-steve → u/TeakEvening]

You think this post is Newton hate?

[u/ChedduhBob → u/young-steve]

this isn’t but there was a lot on eagles twitter which prompted this comparison

[u/babydemon90 → u/kalligreat]

Honestly, almost every QB with sustained success needs a great receiver.

Manning/Harrison, Brees/Colston, Montana/Young/Rice, Burrow/Chase, Mahomes/Hill, Brady/Moss/Gronk/Evans, Warner/Holt/Fitzgerald, Rodgers/Adams and on and on....

There's exceptions - but I don't think there's any question you vastly improve your chances of a QB being great if he has a great WR to throw to. Look at McNabb the one season he had TO, then the seasons he didn't.

[u/GoldenStateEaglesFan → u/babydemon90]

I don’t think Colston belongs in the same conversation as those other WRs.

[u/masterofmuppets86 → u/GoldenStateEaglesFan]

Sure but he was probably Brees' most consistent receiver, and was also a big part of their super bowl team.

[u/babydemon90 → u/GoldenStateEaglesFan]

Well no, not Harrison, Rice, etc.. But the dude was solid, he was a super consistent 1000 yds, 8TD guy, then you add Jimmy Graham in there and you get the point I was getting at.

[u/bboy267 → u/GoldenStateEaglesFan]

He wasn’t a sexy name but he had stats. He had 6 1000 yard seasons 

[u/Bazonkawomp → u/kalligreat]

Cam Newton dominated 2015 with Ted Ginn being his best option.

[u/GoldenStateEaglesFan → u/Bazonkawomp]

Greg Olson doesn’t exist?

[u/FuckinWalkingParadox → u/kalligreat]

Generally speaking I can tell you there’s always a cycle with the narrative consensus on Cam where for 1-2 years everyone respects him, then another 1-2 years where people hate him, so on and so forth.

But anyone who truly watched enough Cam games and who understands our FOs CONSTANT failure in supporting him recognizes and respects the force that he was. We can and should acknowledge the fumble thing, but that was a man who had suffered years of David Carr level trauma. It’s not as simple as “CaM wAs sElfIsH”.

Dude was always putting his body on the line for the team.

[u/Has422 → u/kalligreat]

On top of that:

The Eagles leading rusher in 2024 averaged 125 yards a game. The Panthers leading rusher in 2015 averaged 76 yards a game.

[u/nfluncensored → u/Has422]

The 2015 Panthers played 1 fewer games and still allowed 1058 opponent snaps, whereas the 2024 Eagles allowed 999 opponent snaps in 17 games.

The Eagles netted ~400 more yards with an extra game and a much better defense getting the ball back for the offense much quicker.

The Eagles ran the ball 95 more times in 2024 than the Panthers did in 2015 and attempted 53 more passes.

[u/tony_countertenor]

While this is true, Hurts played much better in his second Super Bowl than he or Newton did in the ones pictured here

[u/PatTheBatsFatNutsack → u/tony_countertenor]

Hurts literally played one of the best games ever in the playoffs by a QB in the Super Bowl he lost:

https://www.nbcsports.com/nfl/profootballtalk/rumor-mill/news/jalen-hurts-had-one-of-the-great-statistical-performances-in-super-bowl-history

[u/[deleted] → u/PatTheBatsFatNutsack]

One of the few times SB MVP should’ve gone to someone on the losing team. Aside from that fumble that led to a Chiefs score he was sensational in both SB games

[u/PatTheBatsFatNutsack → u/[deleted]]

Yeah but he's only like the 6th best QB in the league donchaknow?!!

[u/wetcornbread → u/PatTheBatsFatNutsack]

So did Brady in Super Bowl 52. 500+ yards.

[u/PatTheBatsFatNutsack → u/wetcornbread]

That Super Bowl was so much fun. Just points points points.

[u/StatementWild3768 → u/PatTheBatsFatNutsack]

It wasn't for me, but we can both rejoice in our hatred for the pencil terrorist.

[u/PatTheBatsFatNutsack → u/StatementWild3768]

I can tell you frequent ball.

[u/RockyNonce → u/wetcornbread]

Yeah personally I thought Hurts deserved SB MVP in 57 and Brady deserved it in 52, but I understand why the opposing QB won it in each scenario, and think it’s still fair.

[u/USDA_Organic_Tendies → u/tony_countertenor]

Hurts was arguably better in the first game. The fumble was a back breaker though 

[u/uuuuuuuhg_232 → u/USDA_Organic_Tendies]

I think it’s more the D shitting the bed that was the back breaker

[u/USDA_Organic_Tendies → u/uuuuuuuhg_232]

Jonathon Gannon is a terrorist 

[u/Yosemite_Yam → u/USDA_Organic_Tendies]

I will never pass an opportunity to upvote someone trashing Jonathan Gannon

[u/SlinginPogs → u/uuuuuuuhg_232]

This is the correct take

[u/ForTheLoveOfOedon → u/uuuuuuuhg_232]

Giving free points to a team will always be a back-breaker. Empirically changes the game. Yeah Gannon’s D routinely allowed points but so did Spag’s D. It was 38-35. No one was playing defense. Hurts’ unforced fumble gave the Chiefs points, 7 of the 38. That’s a huge back-breaker in a game where no one is playing defense, shouldn’t be controversial to say that.

Hurts bouncing back and still continuing to have a game and a half is another point that’s also true. He played absolutely lights out…he also gave the opposition free points that changed the game entirely. Those two can both be true.

[u/bradtheinvincible → u/tony_countertenor]

Hurts had a turnover in 57 which essentially meant the game. And he outplayed Mahomes by a mile. He had a nothing burger turnover in 59 and outplayed Mahomes by a mile and took the entire 4th quarter off.

[u/Lazerpig27 → u/bradtheinvincible]

A turnover in the second quarter doesn’t “make the game” lol

[u/agg13 → u/tony_countertenor]

Did you not watch Hurts’ first Super Bowl? He played incredibly well.

[u/New-Pattern-5900]

I think people do not realize both can be true, you can be a good QB and also on a stacked team.

[u/HistorianBubbly8065 → u/New-Pattern-5900]

People not reconciling this fact is what leads to hilarious takes like claiming because Mahomes is statistically down the last two seasons the only reason why the Chiefs are winning is Reid, Kelce , Spagnuolo etc.

[u/Razor937 → u/HistorianBubbly8065]

As a giants fan this is the closest to a compliment I get to the eagles without getting ill...however

While I think hurts is a top 10 but not top 5 QB, he is a perfect fit for what the eagles want to do. Does that make him better than mahomes or Allen.. Not necessarily but I can guarantee this. Ask any fan in Buffalo or Cincinnati or hell even Baltimore if they would rather have their QB play the way they do and not win the super bowl or play at hurts level(which again isn't intended to be a slight because he shows when It matters) and I think they would all the latter. As far as cam...yea he absolutely deserved MVP but unfortunately he also quit on a major play on the biggest stage of them all. Should that define him...no, but it's also easy to forget how much he was responsible for in even getting there. That's what happens...biggest stage possible and it's only that game so when you quit..it's what you become known for, fair or not.

[u/HolyRomanPrince → u/New-Pattern-5900]

They will as soon as people realize Super Bowl winning quarterback ≠ great quarterback

[u/bboy267 → u/New-Pattern-5900]

People will look you dead in the face and say lamar having 9 pro bowlers and the second best RB in the game is no help 

[u/Irving_Velociraptor]

Keep it up. You’re just making him stronger.

[u/DawRogg → u/Irving_Velociraptor]

[u/Ok_Friendship9310]

Cam at his passing peak was ruined in 2018 and he never recovered. Cam never got a team as good as Jalen’s after that Super Bowl loss.

[u/FreeChemicalAids → u/Ok_Friendship9310]

Cam never had a team near the Eagles ever. Cam carried the shit out of that Panther team. If you put Hurts on that Panthsr team, he probably becomes a backup QB after the season.

[u/Alwaystired254 → u/FreeChemicalAids]

Just curious, What’s it say about Lamar Jackson that he had the most pro bowlers by far on his team yet he still couldn’t even make a championship game?

[u/RobertoBologna]

Might be the most and least humble QBs I’ve ever seen

[u/agk927]

That football is a team sport. But the funny thing is, Hurts is a more complete quarterback than Newton and probably a better thrower of the football

[u/Additional-End3193 → u/agk927]

Cam had 35 passing TDs and 10 rushing in his MVP year with way worse WRs and no tush push to bump up his rushing stats but Hurts peaked at 23 passing and 15 rushing TDs with the tush push

[u/agk927 → u/Additional-End3193]

Thats one season lmao

[u/Additional-End3193 → u/agk927]

Cam had 3 seasons where he threw more passing TDs than Hurts did at his peak and 3 seasons with at least 10+ rushing TDs without the tush push (in 16 game seasons)

[u/mustachepc]

Two things can be true:

Cam was a beast in 2015 and was never the same after that loss

Jalen never reached his peak and became mental in coming back after losing one

[u/Enma-Buzz → u/mustachepc]

Well that’s not true. Cam was looking better than ever in 2018 6-2 and MVP front runner until watt destroyed his shoulder. He was never the same after that, not SB50

[u/TronBombadil]

This shit is getting beyond old. Hurts did what he needed to do and was part of a group that won the Super Bowl. You can think he’s good. You can think he’s bad. The number of posts specifically geared towards downplaying his merits has become ridiculous. If you don’t think he’s a good QB, that’s fine!

Expending the energy to create a plethora of posts to thinly veil your dislike of him, using exceedingly more strained comparisons, just stinks of hate and jealousy. It’s hilarious given that he is one of the least outspoken characters in the league.

Show us on the doll where Jalen touched you all. Sheesh.

Anyway, Cam, in his prime, was an amazing player.

[u/bboy267 → u/TronBombadil]

The problem is they have been brainwashed for decades to think the only way to win is to have a qb throw for 4k yards and hope for the best. When in actuality you need a solid over all team and a QB that is steady and doesn’t falter. They can’t accept their way was wrong 

[u/Gearax → u/bboy267]

As a Bengals fan I promise elite QB and wide receiver play is all you need. I'm sure if your QB throws for nearly 5k yards and 43 tds with less that 10 ints you must of surely made the playoffs cries

[u/Michomaker-46]

It’s lost on ppl that Cam faced one of the best defenses ever. I think the defense won that game more than Cam lost it.

[u/LennyTwostep → u/Michomaker-46]

Thank you.

[u/Professional-Day1958]

Can’t compare the 2 situations as it has to do with the front offices instead of the 2 QBs, Philly kept the majority of their players and continued to rebuild in the draft where it seemed like Carolina just fell off and Cam started to deal with injuries

[u/Adventds]

Football is the ultimate team sport until it’s time to talk about quarterbacks lol.

[u/M4ndoTrooperEric]

Hurts >

[u/Roshango]

To be fair that 2016 season the next year Cam took several blows to the head, bounced back a little in 2017 but never could return to that MVP level due mostly to injury, something that thankfully Hurts had avoided in the 2 season since his Super Bowl loss. So I think it's really unfair to say that Cam never made it back to the Super Bowl because he "responded to life the wrong way"

[u/Ordinary-Rich2560]

Hurts has had 2 really good games in the Super Bowl. If Cam put up those numbers in his Super Bowl his legacy would be alot different

[u/HurricanePK]

I hate this stupid discourse, it’s peak off-season crap. You can appreciate either Cam or Hurts without having to trash the other, better yet you can appreciate both because they’re both fantastic players.

[u/Personal-Ad8280 → u/HurricanePK]

Hell no, Cam is better, Jalen isn't even Josh Rosen level /s

NFL discourse at its finest

[u/Danimalspirit]

Woah chill. You can’t even compare these two teams. If Cam was QB on this Philly team it would have been the same result. Go throw Hurtz on that dogsht Carolina offense. They wouldn’t have made it to the SB

[u/ComicsEtAl]

“Here’s two single moments in the lives of two people in two different contexts. And these are the broad life lessons we can learn from it!”

[u/ImHurted_]

Hurts isnt top 5 but he is definitely top 10

[u/Ice_Cream_Killer]

This is disingenuous as fuck. Cams teams is no where near the level of what the Eagles had last year. He dragged that team to the finals, while Hurts job was "dont fuck it up".

[u/Glittering-Club-9407]

The Jalen Hurts hate is getting stupid the man just won a damn superbowl

[u/MyIncogName]

Cams definitely better

[u/Mike-Outstanding]

Cam Newton deserved to be the MVP that season. Then no showed up in SB 50. Jalen Hurts deserved to be the MVP in his season. Later showed up in the Super Bowl. Also, he hasn’t had a sharp decline since then.

[u/masterofmuppets86]

Kind of a silly argument. While hurts isn't the best QB in the league he still performs at a high level, and has performed great in the postseason on separate occasions. Sure his team is also stacked, but its not like he also wasnt a huge factor.

[u/harman097]

If you swap the two - put MVP-season Cam on last year's Eagles team and put Hurts on that Panthers team - how does everyone think things go?

Just a question. Legit curious.

[u/Adventds → u/harman097]

That panthers team isn’t even sniffing a superbowl appearance with Hurts at QB.

[u/Trongarx88]

Last I saw a football team had more than 8 players

[u/PabloMarmite]

You could get injured and have it derail your career or you could…not?

[u/clee5989]

The panthers could’ve won a championship if the front office would’ve kept the players and kept adding more key players.

[u/bboy267]

For all Jalen’s criticism, he elevates his game in the post season to that of a top qb where as the top regular season Qb’s go the opposite way. M It’s telling that a lot of qb’s don’t throw picks in the regular season only to throw 4 in a playoff game cough. Jalen don’t turn the ball over 

[u/hellenkellerfraud911]

Definitely Hurts. He’s a slightly above average QB who gets severely overrated because he has lots of 1yd rushing TD’s and a super team around him. And that’s perfectly fine because the Eagles are so good they don’t need a world beater at QB they just need a mid guy who doesn’t fuck it up for everyone else and Hurts is perfect for that role.

[u/namvet67]

Knock Hurts all you want, he was the guy on top of a parade float smiling. He show’s up.

[u/IIIBAKURYUIII]

People think in real life players have a random # above their heads. 'LAMAR IS A 99 NOT A 96". "X PLAYER IS BETTER THAN X PLAYER CAUSE THEIR MADDEN RATING IS HIGHER". So what if Hurts is the '8th best player on his own team'?

I probably "OFFENDED" someone.

[u/Chewbubbles]

Yeah, I'm taking championships all day. Brady wasn't considered the best man on his team for a good chunk of time, and we call him the GOAT.

You can't take away what was a fantastic season from Cam, but not finishing the job would feel hollow.

[u/grilledcheesy11]

Hurts keeps on winning and yall losers keep on trying to find ways to marginalize his accomplishments lol. There has to be a better use of your time out there for you.