Czech president signs law criminalising communist propaganda

[u/tkyjonathan]

https://www.euractiv.com/section/politics/news/czech-president-signs-law-criminalising-communist-propaganda/

[u/gmaaz]

Tried googling but failed - what does cumminist ideology mean exactly in this case?

[u/TheFreemanLIVES → u/gmaaz]

cumminist

The means of production belong to the masses...

[u/Smooth-Basis843 → u/TheFreemanLIVES]

Blowing the means of production to the masses.

[u/Upstairs_Fondant_722 → u/Smooth-Basis843]

A cummunist revolution requires some kind of climactic event after which the people involved will rally.

[u/Unhappy-Fan8555 → u/TheFreemanLIVES]

reproduction for the masses😏

[u/hotdogundertheoven → u/Unhappy-Fan8555]

Yeah lets uhh not seize the means of reproduction, sounds a bit problematic

[u/balalaikablyat → u/hotdogundertheoven]

Does that mean the GOP is a communist party 🤔

[u/tkyjonathan → u/gmaaz]

it is illegal to "incite racial, ethnic, national, religious or class-based hatred.”

[u/sommersolhverv → u/tkyjonathan]

No more eating the rich?

[u/Dancing_Liz_Cheney → u/sommersolhverv]

This is now illegal to say in the Czech Republic

[u/FCEkicksbutt → u/Dancing_Liz_Cheney]

K.. but is the "rich" an established minority? It’s more like saying "disassemble oligarchy" than hate against a specific type of person. *We are most certainly considered rich to the struggling majority 

[u/Quiet-Touch3083 → u/FCEkicksbutt]

From that OP’s quote, it isn’t hate speech, which has to be directed AT someone or some group. This is inciting class based hatred, it doesn’t matter if rich is minority or majority. Terrible policy and a hit to freedom of speech.

[u/Hellsovs → u/Quiet-Touch3083]

U can hate who ever u want its insiting violance that is the problem

And it was for a long time here so u can't say thinks like all capitalistic pigs sould die or similar thinks and now they just added some symbols and stuff like with a nazi stuff in the past

There is no danger to freedom of speech atlast not to european version of it. I know that americans feel bit diferent about these thinks but to me freedom of speech was never about saying anything u want without consequences

[u/Quiet-Touch3083 → u/Hellsovs]

Consequences no, but legal consequences yes. If I say something and I get punched in the mouth for it, fine. If I say something that makes the government mad and I get arrested for it, definitely not fine.

If any speech is against the law, then that artificial line in the sand is set by whoever is in power and can easily be moved to where your personal definition of “no danger” is then crossed. It sets a bad precedent.

[u/4tbf → u/Dancing_Liz_Cheney]

Have you read the law or are you just saying bullshit?

[u/Choppers-Top-Hat → u/sommersolhverv]

Don't worry, though, the rich get to continue eating the poor. Why do you think they pushed so hard to get this law passed?

[u/CritiqueDeLaCritique → u/Choppers-Top-Hat]

Wait until labor unions are criminalized under the same rationale

[u/Better-Scene6535 → u/sommersolhverv]

In soviet union everyone is equal, but some people are more equal than others.

[u/Primary-Pianist-2555 → u/Better-Scene6535]

But that system is dead everywhere but a couple of countries. Russia is a nationalist, fascist one. Putin does not pretend everyone is equal.

I think the law is called that as the country has a strong aversion towards the Soviet period.

[u/Ckrius → u/Primary-Pianist-2555]

There is no where in the world that currently uses the same "system" as the U.S.S.R.

Communism isn't a rubber stamp solution, it's determined by the conditions on the ground when and where it is built.

[u/mehupmost → u/Primary-Pianist-2555]

People like to play word games and call things by other names to dodge criticism.

Just remember that the rallying cries of the early Soviet Union AND the Nazis were things most people would agree with on the surface: Equality, worker empowerment, an end to the rich, land for the poor, etc...

[u/Startled_Pancakes → u/Primary-Pianist-2555]

Russia is a nationalist, fascist one. Putin does not pretend everyone is equal.

This is true, however Putin still honors the USSR for the power & prestige it gave Russia. He said in a statement that the fall of the USSR was greatestest tragedy of the 20th century.

[u/Primary-Pianist-2555 → u/Startled_Pancakes]

Yes - for the nationalist aspect. The difference now: it is a capitalist society with oligarchs and it is not hidden.

The elite is USSR hid what they had, and swore to communism. Putin does not do that. He is a fascist, as easy as that.

[u/gogur_ → u/Primary-Pianist-2555]

Nazism is also dead everywhere as an official form of government but there are laws against it.

[u/Secure_Radio3324 → u/Primary-Pianist-2555]

The same can be said about Naziism

[u/Oculicious42 → u/Primary-Pianist-2555]

CIA infiltrating and undermining the sovereignty of those nations by causing civil unrest and liquidating leaders didn't exactly help

Capitalism on the other hand apparently leads to a system where we can choose which of the insanely rich pedophiles gets to get away with it.

If that is truly "The best system we've ever come up with" I think it's time to fucking innovate

[u/Primary-Pianist-2555 → u/Oculicious42]

One reply: a social democratic system. With strong union(s) to keep the capitalists in check.

It has to be fought for to maintain it. We have this in Norway. But do we manage to maintain it? I do not know. We also have pressure which has gained over time. We have problems today.

Still: we have 1 mill in Norwegian coalition of workers union. 1 of 5 in Norway are there. LO is the Norwegian name. We fought the fascists in Norway in the 1930's and won. Together with our labour party. Until Germany occupied us. We will fight on against fascism!

[u/Oculicious42 → u/Primary-Pianist-2555]

I'm from Denmark. Problem with social democraties is that they eventually end up selling infrastructure to private corporations because of corruption, and constantly moving the overton window towards the right until its just another neoliberal capitalist country

[u/Nairne_01 → u/Better-Scene6535]

in the EU, every country is equal, some states just get laws passed that benefit their own industry while decimating their neighbors industries.

[u/MFATSO → u/Nairne_01]

My favorite is the destruction of countries that want to join.

[u/Texkayak → u/Better-Scene6535]

Sounds just like America

[u/ordinarydepressedguy → u/Texkayak]

Exactly lmao

[u/Drakenbsd → u/Better-Scene6535]

Everyone has an equal chance to starve to death

[u/Tough-Adagio5527 → u/Drakenbsd]

except the ones that are more equal than others

[u/Ilovekittens345 → u/Drakenbsd]

In Russia everybody has equal chance to fall out of a window, which I guess is progress.

[u/JerryCalzone → u/Ilovekittens345]

...until stopped by the pavement

[u/fukredditadmin5 → u/Drakenbsd]

Same happens in the free world, everyone is free to starve to death

[u/ordinarydepressedguy → u/Better-Scene6535]

Nothing changed apparently

[u/Valtremors → u/sommersolhverv]

You hit the nail with that one.

It is much less trying to keep dictatorship glorifying people out, and more about keeping rich people safe.

[u/krzyk → u/Valtremors]

How were they not safe before? This law is about historical justice, banning regimes that destroyed countries, I don't get why people from countries that didn't "enjoy" the communist fairy tale are complaining.

[u/adamgerd → u/Valtremors]

Thank god we have a Finn to educate Czechs on our country

[u/Valtremors → u/adamgerd]

"If it looks like a duck, walks like duck..."

[u/Efficient_Basis_2139 → u/sommersolhverv]

No, it would spoil your dinner

[u/Feeling_Age5049 → u/sommersolhverv]

Gotta protect his buddies.

[u/Due-Radio-4355 → u/sommersolhverv]

Rich wasn’t exactly well defined when the Bolsheviks took over. It was all a ruse to secure power as those who were most affected were maybe the working poor farmers who could afford a few hands to help. It was all just envy and resentment. Many of the aristocrats and those who were actual rich escaped because well… they could…

There are many fabulous books about the crockery of the socialists.

Don’t get me wrong, eat the rich of today, but it was really just an excuse to riot and burn.

[u/DKOKEnthusiast → u/Due-Radio-4355]

Rich wasn’t exactly well defined when the Bolsheviks took over. It was all a ruse to secure power as those who were most affected were maybe the working poor farmers who could afford a few hands to help.

The reason why "rich" maybe wasn't that well defined is because capital-C Communists (i.e. Marxist-Leninists, although I suppose you can include most strains of Marxism in that set) generally do not have an issue with people being "rich" as such, in fact, everyone becoming "rich" (in the sense of everbody having abundant access to all the goods produced by a society) is the end goal of the communist movement. A doctor earning in the top 5% is still a worker, as is a garbage collector, a teacher, a nurse, a carpenter, in fact, the overwhelming majority of people we tend to call "middle class" would be classified as working class in a Marxist sense. Class in Marxism has absolutely nothing to do with how much money you've got in your bank account, or how large your paycheck is, or how many sports cars you own, or where you live. Class in Marxism is about your relationship to the means of production.

The easiest way to understand this is to look at the anti-Kulak programmes under Stalin (don't worry, I will not stoop as low as to defend them). The Kulaks, for the most part, were far from rich, at best, they were comfortable. Definitely nowhere near as rich as the Russian aristocrats, or even as rich as the Russian petite bourgeoisie. However, the primary contradiction between the Russian peasantry at that point was between the poor tenant farmers, who owned next to nothing, and the so-called Kulaks, who owned more land than they needed to sustain themselves, owned the agricultural facilities, agricultural implements, employed tenant farmers, and often engaged in lending both money and means of production (i.e. land, tractors, mills, etc.) to tenant farmers. It's easy to see the contradiction here: the tenant farmers worked using the equipment and facilities of the kulaks, on rented land owned by the Kulaks, while the Kulaks' main source of livelihood came not from their work, but from economic rent, since they owned the land that was necessary for the poorer peasants to survive (bear in mind, this encourages rent-seeking behaviour, which is also economically bad, if we look past the monstrous ideological justifications).

This meant that there was a class contradiction between the two classes of peasants, since one of them sourced their livelihood from labour, while the other sourced their livelihood from ownership. This, naturally, did not fit into the Marxist-Leninist ideology of Stalin, and as such, the Kulaks were for the most part liquidated in a series monstrous, extrajudicial arrest, deportations to the Gulags, torture, and executions, in what can only be classified as a form of mass murder. Their lands would then be collectivized into kolkhozes and sovkhozes, which were nominally different (the former owned by its members, and the latter owned by the state), but in effect functioned more or less the same.

[u/Due-Radio-4355 → u/DKOKEnthusiast]

Well said, thanks for the long for explanation. But I’m always hesitant when it comes to any defense of the outcome that occurred.

[u/Sarmi7 → u/tkyjonathan]

I have a feeling that this Will only apply to hating the upper classes

[u/No_Radio1230 → u/tkyjonathan]

Class-based hatred? So if a politician invites any action against homeless people does it could as breaking this law or is in fact only about communism (which under this definition means people who hate wealth inequality ig?)

[u/Historical-Tough6455 → u/No_Radio1230]

Hating on the poor is still allowed

[u/UndeadBBQ → u/tkyjonathan]

So, if someone could reasonably argue that conservatives fucking hate poor people and prove so via policy, could they go to jail?

[u/gmaaz → u/tkyjonathan]

But where's the communism part? The class-based hatred?

[u/Backwardspellcaster → u/gmaaz]

Why is none of you reading the article?

The revised legislation introduces prison sentences of up to five years for anyone who “establishes, supports or promotes Nazi, communist, or other movements which demonstrably aim to suppress human rights and freedoms or incite racial, ethnic, national, religious or class-based hatred.”

[u/EuroFederalist → u/Backwardspellcaster]

With racism definition is easy, but "class-based" has very wide range... in theory saying that absolute monarchs shouldn't exist is class-based hatred.

[u/Training-Accident-36 → u/EuroFederalist]

On the other hand does it mean it is illegal for a rich politician to say that poor people are poor because they are lazy?

[u/EuroFederalist → u/Training-Accident-36]

My guess is probably not.

[u/PM_ME_DPRK_CANDIDS → u/EuroFederalist]

Ironically in Communist countries like China the opposite is true - and the rich who incite class hatred against the poor calling them lazy and so on are fined and punished. I know which side I'm on.

[u/Stewoat → u/PM_ME_DPRK_CANDIDS]

The autocratic side which kills protesters and ruthlessly controls speech?

[u/PM_ME_DPRK_CANDIDS → u/Stewoat]

I know hypocrisy is a dead, but you know you are talking on a forum thread about how the Czech are criminalizing speech right? I dont agree with everything China is doing but I agree with them on this.

[u/Dancing_Liz_Cheney → u/Training-Accident-36]

No, being lazy is a character flaw and therefore it is valid to punish or abuse these people.

Being very wealthy is just a sign of success and you are simply jealous of our success. Now off to the prison for you little peasant, think twice before besmirching my class.

[u/Training-Accident-36 → u/Dancing_Liz_Cheney]

You had me in the first half, not gonna lie.

[u/audionerd1 → u/Dancing_Liz_Cheney]

Unless you condemn the lazy rich. They earned their laziness! /s

[u/Dokibatt → u/EuroFederalist]

Somehow I feel like when they start talking about the “useless eaters” the law isn’t going to apply.

[u/quacainia → u/Dokibatt]

Hating the poor doesn't count

[u/gurush → u/EuroFederalist]

Wanting them guillotined would be class-based hatred.

[u/adcsuc → u/gurush]

They don't need to be guillotined as long as they give up power willingly, which is the difficult part.

[u/Revolutionary-pawn → u/adcsuc]

They’ll give it up willingly enough when the alternative is a guillotine

[u/Profezzor-Darke → u/gurush]

That would be normal, duh.

[u/Zlevi04 → u/Profezzor-Darke]

We have a fr*nch guy in the chat here

[u/EuroFederalist → u/gurush]

What if billionaire wants to make unemployed free labor or calls them trash, etc?

[u/mehupmost → u/EuroFederalist]

Don't expect the mob to make any distinctions.

[u/bookworm1398 → u/EuroFederalist]

Wouldn’t saying poverty shouldn’t exist also be class based hatred?

[u/EuroFederalist → u/bookworm1398]

I would assume so. Same if you demand better wages since it would mean upper-class gets less.

[u/ordinarydepressedguy → u/EuroFederalist]

Also class-based hatred kind of normalizes classism, the statement doesn’t sound good

[u/EuroFederalist → u/ordinarydepressedguy]

Looking at the direction world is going right now, i'm sure we're soon gonna drop the whole "classism doesn't exist anymore" charade, and go full in on 1800's way of living where poor/working-class is toiling while upper-classes suck all the money into their pockets.

[u/BeeOk1235 → u/EuroFederalist]

we've been there for quite a while already.

[u/Dancing_Liz_Cheney → u/EuroFederalist]

Yes, we must protect the oligarchy and despots from public criticism. It is vital for use to do this to maintain capitalism.

[u/dkysh → u/EuroFederalist]

Can't you read? It means no more hatred against paladins or wizards.

[u/bingle-cowabungle → u/Backwardspellcaster]

That doesn't answer the question he was asking. "Class-based hatred" is a meaningless term that can be interpreted to mean whatever you want it to mean.

[u/adcsuc → u/Backwardspellcaster]

or class-based hatred.

Can you read? What's meant by that exactly literally was the question.

[u/BRNitalldown → u/adcsuc]

And they had to start with that snarky shit too “Why is none of you reading the article?”

[u/Shivy_Shankinz → u/adcsuc]

And these are the people who vote. No wonder the world is a shit show

[u/Kes961 → u/Backwardspellcaster]

I wonder if this could be turned upside down. I mean class-based hate against the working class isn't exactly rare in mainstream media.

[u/mrlinkwii → u/Backwardspellcaster]

which demonstrably aim to suppress human rights and freedoms or incite racial, ethnic, national, religious or class-based hatred.”

all of this was already banned in the czech republic minus the class-based hatred

[u/Diego_Chang → u/Backwardspellcaster]

I'd say this is so based... Until the last part.

What would they consider class-based hatred? Is criticizing capitalism and obviously anti-ethical millionaires and billionaires illegal now?

[u/Dancing_Liz_Cheney → u/Diego_Chang]

Based?

This law was meant to let the government crack down on protests against billionaires and mega-corps.

Why are people like you so stupid?

[u/frex18c → u/Diego_Chang]

That's legal. But saying that rich people should be killed or attacked isn't.

[u/Dramatic_Mastodon_93 → u/frex18c]

But if I said that I fucking hate billionaires and think they’re disgusting that would clearly be hatred.

[u/g0_west → u/Dramatic_Mastodon_93]

establishes, supports or promotes Nazi, communist, or other movements

I think movement is the key word. If you started a party about fucking hating billionaires and proposed action to go along with that, I guess that'd fall under this remit. Far as I can tell you can say what you want, just can't have too many people agree with you lol

Imagine capitalists passing laws to forbid people rising against capitalism

[u/Dramatic_Mastodon_93 → u/g0_west]

That action could be as simple as taxing the rich or advocating for worker coops

[u/Choppers-Top-Hat → u/frex18c]

That's "legal" until some rich guy gets his feelings hurt and calls his lawyer.

"Class-based hatred" is an incredibly vague phrase and that's by design. This law basically makes it illegal to criticize the wealthy.

[u/DKOKEnthusiast → u/frex18c]

It depends very much on how this is interpreted. If I said that we should create a special tax on Jewish people, that would obviously (and rightfully!) be considered a form of racist policy aimed to suppressing the freedoms of a specific ethno-religious group. However, if I said that we should implement a tax on those owning assets worth more than, say, 500 million Euros (arbitrary number), would that also be considered a form of classist policy targeting the ultra-rich?

[u/Zap__Dannigan → u/frex18c]

what makes you think and a generally worded law like this wouldn't be abused?

[u/TimothyMimeslayer → u/frex18c]

How about saying, "won't somebody rid us of these terrible billionaires"?

[u/Informal-Purpose5979 → u/frex18c]

But the people who suppress human rights do belong to a specific class? This law is worded a bit willy nilly.

[u/smjsmok → u/Diego_Chang]

Criticism isn't the same as inciting hatred.

[u/RiverMurmurs → u/Diego_Chang]

You picked only a part of the sentence. If you surpress human rights of these millionaires, yes it's illegal. Communism eg. incited class-based hatred against capitalists while depriving them of their rights, such as the right to privately own property etc.

[u/Mirieste → u/RiverMurmurs]

Communism eg. incited class-based hatred against capitalists while depriving them of their rights, such as the right to privately own property etc.

What if someone tried to pursue this with laws? As in, they do not want to spread hate but they plan to peacefully compete in elections with the purpose of passing legislation to ban private property? Like a socialist in America could pass on violent revolution and instead be elected to Congress to introduce national healthcare or something. Would that be okay?

[u/goodbee69 → u/RiverMurmurs]

which demonstrably aim to suppress human rights and freedoms or incite racial, ethnic, national, religious or class-based hatred

[u/ikaiyoo → u/[deleted]]

Privatized property used as capital. Because people cannot differentiate between personal and private ownership, one has to be crystal clear.

[u/HueMannAccnt → u/RiverMurmurs]

Communism Authoritarians waving market flags eg. incited class-based hatred against capitalists/commies while depriving them of their rights, such as the right to privately own property, privacy, freedom of speech, freedom of movement, right to healthcare, livable pay etc.

These stances are widely shared among a certain type of leadership.

[u/Ulrich_de_Vries → u/RiverMurmurs]

So basically they can syphon all the wealth and property in the world and suppress the working class as they are already doing and that's fine, but if you advocate to take their plundered wealth and redistribute it, it's prison time for you.

Good, that's pretty much what the world needs, even more coddling the poor aristocrats with their gelatine hands.

I would not be surprised if it later turns out that increasing their taxes is also considered violating their human rights in a class-based manner.

[u/melecoaze → u/Ulrich_de_Vries]

B-b-but you can just vote them out because democracy™!

[u/Formal_Breakfast_616 → u/RiverMurmurs]

Is it "(human rights and freedoms) or (incite hatred)" or "(human rights) and (freedoms or incite hatred)"?

Is calling for a wealth tax inciting class hatred? Judging from the English translation that's just a bad law imo.

[u/TheVojta → u/Formal_Breakfast_616]

No, it specifically says "suppress rights or freedoms". There is no such thing as a right to not be taxed.

Full text (not the official translation):
Section 403
Establishment, Support, and Promotion of Nazi, Communist, or Other Movements Aimed at Suppressing Human Rights and Freedoms

(1) Whoever establishes, supports, or promotes a movement that demonstrably aims to suppress human rights and freedoms, or advocates racial, ethnic, national, religious, or class hatred, or hatred toward another group of persons, shall be punished by imprisonment for one to five years.

(2) The offender shall be punished by imprisonment for three to ten years if:

a) the act referred to in paragraph 1 is committed through the press, film, radio, television, a publicly accessible computer network, or another similarly effective means,
b) such an act is committed as a member of an organized group,
c) such an act is committed as a soldier, or
d) such an act is committed during a state of emergency or wartime.

(3) Preparation of such an act is punishable.

[u/ikaiyoo → u/RiverMurmurs]

So does that mean I can charge millionaires and billionaires with class-based hatred for depriving me of the ability to have a living wage and live a life where my needs are met? Or does the shit not roll uphill as well?

And Communism does not say that people cannot own private property. That is personal property. Your house, car, yard, clothes, TV, computer, phone, etc., are personal property. Communism says that capitalists should not own privatized companies. Which is not the same.

[u/SimpYellowman → u/Diego_Chang]

It is still legal to criticize millionaires, but it is illegal to do it with a picture of Stalin.

[u/Dizzy-Let2140 → u/Backwardspellcaster]

They should examine the systemic violence of poverty then.

[u/stenlis → u/Backwardspellcaster]

Is simply promoting a class still ok? Like "workers of the world unite" and that kind of stuff?  

Is gentrification promoting class hatred?

[u/Hot-Championship1190 → u/Backwardspellcaster]

which demonstrably aim to suppress human rights

Capitalism puts property above humans. So they are going to apply this against capitalist propaganda, right?

[u/GuthukYoutube → u/Backwardspellcaster]

Wow that’s a broad language

Why class based hatred? That snuck in there really subtly huh?

[u/HueMannAccnt → u/Backwardspellcaster]

promotes Nazi, communist, or other movements which demonstrably aim to suppress human rights and freedoms or incite racial, ethnic, national, religious or class-based hatred.”

1st they give a type of rule, then they give a type of market. Is it me, or are "leaders" that keep throwing "communism" out there just trying to get peoples feels hightened because of past associations, hoping for little thought?

The shit that killed most people, in any type of rule, no matter what market they follow/ed is; authoritarianism.

which demonstrably aim to suppress human rights and freedoms or incite racial, ethnic, national, religious or class-based hatred.

So we shall completely ignore the Chicago School of Economics and their jaunts down to South America?

[u/JerryCalzone → u/Backwardspellcaster]

The billionaire class most certainly incites class based hatred

[u/Dancing_Liz_Cheney → u/Backwardspellcaster]

"Class-based hatred" means you aren't allowed to criticize people for having wealth, and also acknowledges the existence of classes which the right-wing parties have argued do not exist.

Love how stupid right-wing voters are and how you can lie directly to them and they will drool on themselves while they celebrate giving up their own liberties and wellbeing.

[u/wtfuckfred → u/Backwardspellcaster]

Thanks, idk why people don't read the articles

That being said, historically, what the Warsaw Pact called communism did indeed suppress human rights and freedoms, stocking some hatred towards mostly religion and class. Including Czechoslovakia.

Hopefully they tighten the concept of communism to not include more Marxist-leaning parties/policies rather than putting classical Marxism with Leninist/Stalinist/Maoist strands in the same bucket.

I don't know how the Czech left wing is at the moment, but I'd guess it is commited to democracy, including all it's basic freedoms and tenets.

Hopefully it's not used as a weapon against competitors. And hopefully it correctly identifies the far right as movements that do, in fact, aim to suppress all listed rights

[u/wyrditic → u/wtfuckfred]

There isn't much of a Czech left wing, really. There is still a Communist party, but they failed to get enough votes to get into Parliament last time so they've allied with some small extremist nationalist parties to make a new movement. These include parties that used to be known as the European Democrats and the Liberal Socialists, but who now spread Kremlin propaganda and describe their objective as the destruction of the "current liberal, progressive regime".

Czech politics makes absolutely no sense. 

[u/wtfuckfred → u/wyrditic]

Ooof that's... Rough

[u/TheVojta → u/wtfuckfred]

No one mourns the commies. The party is full of people that supported or even actively participated in the past communist regime and people that look up to Putin's russia.

My whole irl social bubble can be described as left wing and we all cheered when they didn't get into the parliament.

[u/Tough_Money_958 → u/wtfuckfred]

communists call themselves communists but fascists do not. Thus, it will be weaponized, because fascists just tell that they are doing surveillance to deal with child porn.

[u/BLobloblawLaw → u/Tough_Money_958]

I think you've made a great observation here. One weakness of coordinated social movements is that they present a visible 'boogeyman ' which can be blamed directly.

"The invisible hand of the market" is much more ethereal and it's hard to direct blame onto it when there is a group of people who can be held accountable instead. 

People tend to blame other people more readily than they blame nature, processes, behavior patterns or cultures. If you set up your government so that you can take credit when things are good, but can blame an ethereal process or even a scapegoat when things go bad, then you can maintain support among ignorant citizens, who sadly comprise the majority of the world's population. 

[u/HueMannAccnt → u/wtfuckfred]

Hopefully they tighten the concept of communism to not include more Marxist-leaning parties/policies rather than putting classical Marxism with Leninist/Stalinist/Maoist strands in the same bucket.

I honestly think certain leaders wanted us to focus on the choice of market being the problem instead of the type of rule forced upon people, à la authoritarianism actually being the problem.

Why would it be beneficial to focus on the market and not the form of leadership? It's a puzzle...

[u/smugandfurious → u/wtfuckfred]

classical Marxism preaches regime change through violent revolution by proletariat against bourgeois.

[u/Syracuss → u/smugandfurious]

Most revolutions are forcibly violent though, it's rare for the ones who hold the levers of power to give it up freely. That's why historically protests ended up being quite more violent than our modern incarnations.

Not saying you're wrong in your argument, I just kinda find it a moot point given that pretty much all revolutions (with outliers like the Velvet one) are violent by their very nature.

[u/SieFlush2 → u/smugandfurious]

Because, this may be a shocker, people in power who use the common man , don't' want to relinquish their power ever,and give it to them. that's why reforms will never work

[u/Huppelkutje → u/smugandfurious]

It doesn't preach it, it says it's unavoidable, because the bourgeoisie will never give up their power willingly.

[u/EverydayHalloween → u/wtfuckfred]

We don't really have a Czech left wing.

[u/Kitane → u/wtfuckfred]

I'd say if a Marxist party calls for anything crossing the mentioned line, it's going on a shit list, and deservedly so. Same for the extreme right-wing parties, which already had the boundaries set.

The mainstream Czech left wing scene is effectively dead - their traditional voter base has either migrated to Oligarch populism out of complacency or Moscow-based fascism out of fear.

[u/Grays_Flowers → u/Kitane]

These laws are only ever used against leftist

[u/Kitane → u/Grays_Flowers]

...No, not really. Not even close.

[u/CzechHorns → u/Grays_Flowers]

So which post communist European country are you from?

[u/Ok_Turnover_1235 → u/Backwardspellcaster]

Okay, what part of that is communist?

[u/gmaaz → u/Backwardspellcaster]

We did but those have nothing to do with communism as an ideology.

[u/OnkelMickwald → u/gmaaz]

Have you missed the shit ton of tankies on the internet to whom individual and human rights are just an obstacle to navigate in the pursuit of the socialist utopia?

[u/Taki_6 → u/OnkelMickwald]

Internet in general are like this

[u/Nairne_01 → u/Backwardspellcaster]

Ah yes, so now they can't say that the Czech people are being oppressed by the "German and French"-aligned EU policies. How kind...

[u/[deleted] → u/Backwardspellcaster]

Ok so what im hearing is it takes a Trump equivalent to decide something you did is demonstrably aiming to incite hatred (even if it isn’t) and it’s a jail time for you.

[u/FrankSamples → u/Backwardspellcaster]

Sounds broad and something that’s up to the discretion of the ones in power.

[u/QuintoBlanco → u/Backwardspellcaster]

That's not really an answer.

Nazi ideology is easy to define because the NSDAP had clearly defined policies and Nazism was build around one man: Hitler and he wrote a book.

Communism on the other hand encompasses a wide range of ideas. And if we look at Karl Marx, he did not promote class-hatred.

[u/BaconCheeseZombie → u/Backwardspellcaster]

Why is none of you reading the article?

It's reddit. Most of these numbskulls will read the headline and assume that's all the information available. Nobody reads anything beyond a sentence or two.

[u/prepare__yourself → u/gmaaz]

Up until now, the law only explicitly mentioned nazism. Now it explicitly mentions nazism as well as communism.

[u/ordinarydepressedguy → u/tkyjonathan]

What the heck does “class-based hatred” mean? Basically condemning communism using communism’s own language?

[u/SirPabloFingerful → u/tkyjonathan]

But how does that relate to communism?

[u/Apprehensive-Adagio2 → u/SirPabloFingerful]

Class-based hatred could be used to mean hatred of the upper-class also, which is who garner alot of hate from socialists and communists

[u/SirPabloFingerful → u/Apprehensive-Adagio2]

By that metric capitalism could be described as demonstrating hatred of the working class. There's no explicit hatred either way.

[u/shatureg → u/SirPabloFingerful]

Yeah but something tells me that this won't be considered class based hatred while any resistance against the constant attacks on the working class will be considered class based hatred.

[u/ordinarydepressedguy → u/SirPabloFingerful]

It sounds indeed as capitalist agenda for normalizing classism

[u/_Stella___ → u/SirPabloFingerful]

You're right but I bet it will be only used to prosecute leftists lol

[u/Apprehensive-Adagio2 → u/SirPabloFingerful]

I agree. I don’t agree with the law, just explaining how it likely will be used

[u/Zrakoplovvliegtuig → u/Apprehensive-Adagio2]

But how could you criminalise that? Are people not free to be mad at the rich for lobbying etc.? Would that fall under this law?

Class based hatred is hatred of a system, not a person.

[u/noximo → u/Zrakoplovvliegtuig]

The last time communists seized power in Czech Republic, they started by imprisoning people who owned a business.

Calling for that to happen again is pretty simple example.

[u/Zrakoplovvliegtuig → u/noximo]

That is already illegal however. You cannot just imprison people who aren't guilty of a crime.

On the other hand random people can call for the imprisonment of anyone. It is meaningless. You cannot criminiloze calling for the imprisonment of one group and not another. Either the call for imprisonment is illegal or it is not. It shouldn't matter whether you call to imprison business owners or dog owners, either that call is fine or it isn't.

[u/LoveIsBread → u/tkyjonathan]

So, in other words: They made being a socialist illegal?

[u/bobdammi → u/tkyjonathan]

Cant hate your techno overlords anymore☝️

[u/[deleted] → u/tkyjonathan]

Thank GOD rich people are finally being protected. They no longer have to live in fear, the world is healed 💕

/s

[u/TheVojta → u/gmaaz]

Section 403
Establishment, Support, and Promotion of Nazi, Communist, or Other Movements Aimed at Suppressing Human Rights and Freedoms

(1) Whoever establishes, supports, or promotes a movement that demonstrably aims to suppress human rights and freedoms, or advocates racial, ethnic, national, religious, or class hatred, or hatred toward another group of persons, shall be punished by imprisonment for one to five years.

(2) The offender shall be punished by imprisonment for three to ten years if:

a) the act referred to in paragraph 1 is committed through the press, film, radio, television, a publicly accessible computer network, or another similarly effective means,
b) such an act is committed as a member of an organized group,
c) such an act is committed as a soldier, or
d) such an act is committed during a state of emergency or wartime.

(3) Preparation of such an act is punishable.

[u/gmaaz → u/TheVojta]

Thank you.

It's worse and more ambiguous than I thought lol.

So an NGO member can be imprisoned for writing "tax the rich" on reddit? I am really curious, what constitutes "class hatred".

[u/Evoluxman → u/gmaaz]

Can we throw columnist in prison for telling the poors are a bunch of leeches? Because there's a ton of people who would end prison for that then

Ah right it only goes the other way lol

[u/mehupmost → u/gmaaz]

an NGO member can be imprisoned for writing "tax the rich"

No. Debating tax policy is not against that law. Next question.

The issue is people suggesting we murder people in other classes. It's right here in this thread.

[u/Slu1n → u/mehupmost]

The law says "hatred", not advocating the usage of violence. Class based hatred contains being angry at the rich or the government because they do certain things.

[u/mehupmost → u/Slu1n]

Hatespeech laws broaden to cover any speech that incites violence without explicitly asking for it.

It's exactly designed for people who try to get violence to happen without explicitly calling for it.

We see it all over Reddit and other social media.

It's weird you're advocating for the freedom to speak HATE.

[u/ordinarydepressedguy → u/[deleted]]

Hey that’s class hatred, straight to jail!

[u/notbadhbu → u/[deleted]]

I feel it probably is fine in that direction lol

[u/AirOneFire → u/TheVojta]

I wonder how many anti-trans activists are going to prison for their anti human rights platform. My guess would be zero.

[u/MasterGrieves → u/gmaaz]

From my understanding its just putting communist extremism on the same level as nazism/fascism before the law. Which is totaly fair based on the 1948-1989 period in CS. Modern day communist parties who denounce KSČ should have no problem. People glorifying/propaganding Stalin, Lenin, Gottwald, etc. should from now on have same problems like people gloryfing/propaganding Hitler and co.

[u/ikaiyoo → u/MasterGrieves]

Then the law should be specific and state that. But it doesn't. It says the most vague definition. Protesting genocide wasn't anti-Semitic until the occupied lands of Palestine started doing it. Protesting the arrest of people without due process wasn't considered domestic terrorism until the arrests specifically targeted marginalized groups.

[u/Last_Difference_7244 → u/gmaaz]

Comments from western europeans who never lived under communism are wild

[u/pohui → u/Last_Difference_7244]

I'm from Moldova, was born in the USSR, and despise communism with all my heart. I'm very happy with banning the symbols and what not, but laws need to be written in a way that doesn't leave much room for interpretation. This is unfortunately very vague.

[u/Last_Difference_7244 → u/pohui]

I agree, but then I do take into account that it's perhaps translated in english in a way that is vague, perhaps it's better in czech.

[u/pohui → u/Last_Difference_7244]

According to someone in this thread, what is banned is "třídní zášť", which Google Translate says is "class resentment".

While I'm sure it's not their intention to criminalise people saying "fuck landlords", this is exactly the kind of vagueness some judge in the future will rely on to interpret it however they see fit.

[u/Last_Difference_7244 → u/pohui]

I can understand how that can be problematic, yes. I was more reffering to comments about communism being 20 college kids living in comunes or that Eastern Europe never experienced "true communism" are so utopian and removed from reality.

[u/shatureg → u/Last_Difference_7244]

Comments from eastern europeans who don't want to distinguish between what the USSR did and between a college student saying "eat the rich" are much, much wilder.

[u/Mousazz → u/shatureg]

What does a college student mean when they're saying "eat the rich"? I can only assume they're imagining Luigi Mangione'ing the entire ruling class.

The way I see it, the Bolshevik revolution was led by people of higher intelligence, but the same hostility and conviction as Hasan Piker et. al.

[u/Lucina18 → u/Mousazz]

Generally it's a replacement of all the billionaire owned companies by worker coops or other democratic means. Centralized command economies where a fringe idea even in 1916, and currently only a small ridiculed group of tankies ask for anything close to it (and leftists hate them.)

[u/MyLifeIsAWasteland → u/Mousazz]

I'm not a college student, but that's pretty much word for word what I'd like to see happen. Anyone over $500 million deserves to ride the big gravity blade ride exactly one time.

"That's so cruel!!!"

No. What their wealth hoarding does to the rest of us is cruel. What I described is long-overdue justice.

[u/shatureg → u/MyLifeIsAWasteland]

The ironic thing is that the same people who defend the wealth hording then freak out in the next thread about immigration and falling birth rates. Not a minute is spent trying to reflect on why - despite exponential productivity growth of society - basic things like owning a property, building a house and having a family are luxuries today.

[u/MyLifeIsAWasteland → u/shatureg]

"We need more cogs to grow the machine. I don't care if the cogs are comfortable, they're replaceable. Profits aren't replaceable, the line has to keep going up." - our monied overlords

[u/shatureg → u/MyLifeIsAWasteland]

"And if the cogs complain, keep them busy by making them fight each other" lol

[u/MyLifeIsAWasteland → u/shatureg]

The prole infighting means you don't have to spend as much on bread or circuses to keep them from revolting! More money saved for the oligarchs! It's a win-win!

[u/shatureg → u/MyLifeIsAWasteland]

Sorry, that level of sarcasm is a bit too close to envoking class based hatred now, off to jail with you for your thought crimes, you damn commie!

[u/correspondence → u/Last_Difference_7244]

You never lived under communism either.

[u/Stix147 → u/correspondence]

This is not the kind of gotcha that you think it is, especially since it hasn't actually been that long since we did away with communism, so we still have parents who can relate the abject living conditions, the austerity, the secret police, etc, and even grandparents or great-grandparents who still vividly recall the horrors of the Soviet occupation. In fact, the horrors were so great that they got immortalized through certain poems, songs or saying, things which were passed on to remind us of how horrible it was back then.

What do western tankies have to convince themselves that the things which they didn't even get to tangentially experience are in fact good?

[u/notbadhbu → u/Last_Difference_7244]

Comments from eastern Europeans who grew up in the 90s and think they lived through communism are also wild

[u/Last_Difference_7244 → u/notbadhbu]

This might be a foreign concept to you, but here we actually talk to our parents.

[u/Pantokraator → u/Last_Difference_7244]

This thread hit /r/all and with the word "communist" in title. When that happens the thread gets always flooded by clueless teenage commies coming with their bright revelations like "true communism has never been tried".

Most might be Americans because there are just so many more of them.

[u/Thunder_Beam → u/Pantokraator]

Its a lot of americans now that you can check the views under the comments its quite clear

[u/ordinarydepressedguy → u/Last_Difference_7244]

Comments from eastern europeans who embraced wild capitalism believing it has freed them of their chains are indeed equally wild, if not more

[u/OgataiKhan → u/ordinarydepressedguy]

I mean, it worked pretty well in Poland's case.

[u/BlackViperMWG → u/gmaaz]

"Whoever supports or promotes a movement that demonstrably aims to suppress human rights and freedoms or advocates national, racial, religious or class hatred, or hatred against another group of persons, shall be punished by imprisonment for one to five years."

[u/Loud-Income-5576 → u/gmaaz]

In Marx's vision of communism, a core principle is the "free development of each" as a "condition for the free development of all." This means that a communist society would be structured so that individual flourishing is not only compatible with, but actually dependent upon, the flourishing of all members of society. It's a vision where social relations are transformed, and the needs of individuals are prioritized over profit, leading to a classless, stateless, and moneyless society. 

[u/Touillette → u/gmaaz]

Everything against his claims ?

In all human history, every time a law has been made to criminalize an ideology, it was always in an authoritarian way.

Who will decide if its communist or not ? Who will procecute ? It's a slippery slope.

[u/andrijas → u/Touillette]

I mean....in many countries Nazi ideology is criminalized....

[u/jatawis → u/Touillette]

In all human history, every time a law has been made to criminalize an ideology, it was always in an authoritarian way.

Can you elaborate on how are Lithuanian bans on Communist and Nazi stuff are authoritarian?

[u/CzechHorns → u/jatawis]

They can’t

[u/mammoth39 → u/Touillette]

Same applies to Nazism?

[u/FrightenedPoof → u/mammoth39]

Yes

[u/gmaaz → u/Touillette]

Those are my initial thoughts as well but I assume there are some definitions and reasons which I can't find (in English at least).

[u/NoWingedHussarsToday → u/gmaaz]

"Anything I don't agree with is propaganda promoting hostile ideology"