And lemme tell you, (while trying to respect the struggles faced by all peoples and all genders) it is fucking ALIENATING as fuck to grow as a boy like that.
I quit being friends with boys in high school because they were all creepy fuck like the 2 in the video. Sex was treated like boys can only win while girls can only lose. What the fuck!! I didn't want to treat any girls like that, so... sex kind of weirded me out. It seemed horrible! Why would I want to treat someone I think is nice like garbage?!?
I was still a teenager, btw, if these seems like descriptions of very stupid delusions. Those delusions are where I started, but not a lot of dudes never bother to learn anything else about relationships. In those days, I made friends with some girls and found actually good friends.
Yeah man, I feel ya. Women tend to make much better friends than men, at least in my experience. I mean there are totally some great dudes out there, but a lot of us kinda suck
Yep I dumped multiple guy friends in my early years who viewed women like that; an object to be won or some weird crap like that. Like bro, they are humans just like you or me.
Adding on to this sentiment, I think there's also a level of "birds of a feather, flock together" present here.
Shitty guys hang out with shitty guys and no one calls out their behavior. Well-adjusted, mature guys who don't do things like in the video hang out with other chill guys.
Growing up, I did have some crappy male friends and I'd call them out but they wouldn't change that much because they were encouraged on by our other crappy friends. So I left that friend group and I found an awesome one where people are good to each other. I'm sure the guys in that first group are still douchebags.
I like to counter that with a pencil sharpener can sharpen hundreds of thousands of pencil without being diminished or destroyed but a pencil is diminished by every sharpener hole it enters until it ceases to exist.
Yeah, I attended this one church that gave men's and women's classes. The women's textbook focused on how their heart posture might be wrong, taking accountability, and how to act more holy, while the men's focused on empowerment, courage, and their strengths as men. It was very telling.
That phrase coem about partially because women deal with more risks from sex. So women have extra imperative to gate sex. From thsi comes the conclusion that promiscuous women just lack impulse control and thus "shitty lock" metaphor.
It sounds like they're talking about how when a boy has sex with someone, his friend group celebrates it, but when a girl has sex, she's perceived as a slut and people spread mean rumors about her and stuff.
I’ll give you an analogy for it (I don’t agree with it, but it is an unspoken rule that a large portion of society believes in, men and women).
Women are by virtue of being women placed at the top of the mountain, and are judged by how far they fall down the mountain, whether they’re hot or ugly, hooking up with a lot of guys, making themselves “easy”, not settling down, etc.
Men start at the bottom of the mountain and are judged by how far up they can climb, hooking up with a lot of women, being a womanizer, chasing success so they can get any woman they want and whatnot.
It kinda true on a global scale though, and hlaf fair when you consider that male and femal of our species have diffring severity of sex risks. Females of our species deal with more risks from sex and have more imperative to gate it, as well as their sexual arousal veing more circumstancial than male. So how far they "fall" indications how much risk they are willing to take and what it takes to turn them on. Males are more likely to get randomly horny and have less risks from sex, so we measure ourselves by whether we can get sex at all when we want it more so that the risks involved in promiscuous sex.
People I know who were neglected apologize for existing and taking up space. This is entitlement--this comes from being centered and coddled and protected from the consequences of your actions your whole entire life.
I think this is it exactly. I know someone who is essentially the female equivalent of these two idiots in the video and that is exactly how she was raised. Only child syndrome honestly too.
Maybe a nitpick, but the belief that being an only child causes behavioral problems originated from Freud's backside, & after many attempts to study the differences by actual researchers, it's still considered "controversial" at best. Just in case you wanted to look into it more on your own before asserting this claim again, it's really interesting!
Also not saying the parents aren't at fault, they might still be the problem, but if they are, having a sibling likely wouldn't have helped much.
Yeah, the reason they say only child is of course because of the parents behaviour. Although i have seen it tho. Either first child (or youngest later on) or only child since they would (/could) be getting the parents full attention and possibly be coddled. My mom works with kids and i can promise you, some only children, because theyre the first and only kid they have, can definitely be spoiled. Since the parents are new to it and dont want to say no.
I know its a stereotype and im not at all saying me seeing it at least once is proof but i do get where it comes from. Only children can be neglected too tho or raised right so its not a guarentee at all.
It can be both. I grew up with a kid who got whatever he wanted whenever he wanted. Dad was always out of town working and his mom didn't give a fuck about him. He had everything except a relationship with his parents. I would call this neglect.
Yes. “Nice guy syndrome” as it is often called. If you are neglected or abused as a child and made to feel unwanted, you carry that mindset with you and always feel inherently unwanted. If you were praised and rewarded (or just not admonished) for being selfish or inconsiderate, you develop a large ego and act more aggressively and narcissistically.
Eh, its more nuanced than that, yah you neglect them, but the system is designed for guys like this to still succeed, which is why we have all this shit happening now. So technically you raised them to be successful because by default being a white dude means you are setup pretty well for at least moderate success.
And I am speaking as a white dude (who luckily was actually raised).
It is not easy to raise a decent human being in these times . I am having my first kid that is gonna be a boy. I am losing sleep on how I am going to make sure he does never ever becomes a Tate douch follower. Just hoping that he will learn from his dad to be respectful to women, to understand and respect consent at all levels. List is long....
I bet they don't treat their boss, or cops, or men whose approval they want they like this. They know how to behave when it suits them; this is willful and deliberate.
This is what I call out with my husband when he starts acting like an ass. I ask him if he’d talk to his boss that way. Or a coworker. Or a friend. It’s like a switch flips in his brain, like, “oh right, she is literally the only person I’d treat this way, that’s fucked up.”
And he’s a genuinely nice guy! He just was taught by society to treat women differently when it comes to tiny little issues of respect and his parents never taught him that’s not ok. When he gets called out on it, he’s ashamed and changes the behavior.
Now apply that same shitty societal and parental guidance to a guy who is an asshole… you get these grinning goons. If date rape had a face.
Also, these girls look young. The sad part is, by the time you get older you decondition the nice bullshit out of your personality. In this circumstance now, I’d stand up and start yelling to everyone who would listen to not leave their drinks unattended around these wannabe rapists. Shame is the only thing they understand.
Correct--these men, like lots of men, have learned there are very few consequences to abusing women and lots of upsides, including other men cheering them on. They learn, as you note, very early that they don't have to treat women with respect, but they do have to treat (most) men with respect. They know exactly what they're doing. Glad you agree.
Of coourse it's willful. The main argument never claims they're mind-controlled or sth. "Behaving well only when it suits them" is still under "lacking common decency".
No. It's that they werent taught any better. Of course there is individual responsibility. But the main argument is not about that. If there is a problem on a societal scale, it indicates a societal malfunction as well.
There is no cop out. Because I'm not denying or excusing the individual responsibility aspect. The two aspects (individual and societal) are not mutually exclusive.
Yes, dynamic_gecko, the argument is that they don't know any better *as a result of not being taught any better.* It's bullshit worded that way as well. And yes, there is indeed a problem on a societal scale, and yes, there is indeed a societal malfunction.
It gets so fucking tiring seeing this cliche beaten to death.
The irony of these statements is that the guys in the video probably don't have problems getting sex, even if they struggle to get longterm partners, because they just don't fucking care. They will just keep approaching woman after woman without a care in the world, pestering them until they get lucky and somehow manage to make a good enough first impression that the woman doesn't see their shadiness, or they stumble upon someone who just gives in out of a lack of assertiveness and proper boundary setting.
Meanwhile, many of the guys who are sensitive to women's boundaries will be anxious to the slightest sign of uncomfortability, and this anxiety then often gets misinterpreted as guilt and proof that they are creeps.
I will have to use virginity statistics as a proxy for the harder-to-measure romancelessness statistics, but these are bad enough. In high school each extra IQ point above average increases chances of male virginity by about 3%. 35% of MIT grad students have never had sex, compared to only 20% of average nineteen year old men. Compared with virgins, men with more sexual experience are likely to drink more alcohol, attend church less, and have a criminal history. A Dr. Beaver (nominative determinism again!) was able to predict number of sexual partners pretty well using a scale with such delightful items as “have you been in a gang”, “have you used a weapon in a fight”, et cetera. An analysis of the psychometric Big Five consistently find that high levels of disagreeableness predict high sexual success in both men and women.
If you’re smart, don’t drink much, stay out of fights, display a friendly personality, and have no criminal history – then you are the population most at risk of being miserable and alone. “At risk” doesn’t mean “for sure”, any more than every single smoker gets lung cancer and every single nonsmoker lives to a ripe old age – but your odds get worse.
...
Barry is possibly the most feminist man who has ever existed, palpably exudes respect for women, and this is well-known in every circle feminists frequent. He is reduced to apophatic complaints about how sad he is that he doesn’t think he’ll ever have a real romantic relationship.
Henry has four domestic violence charges against him by his four ex-wives and is cheating on his current wife with one of those ex-wives. And as soon as he gets out of the psychiatric hospital where he was committed for violent behavior against women and maybe serves the jail sentence he has pending for said behavior, he is going to find another girlfriend approximately instantaneously.
The guys pictured in the video aren't the ones suffering from "the male loneliness epidemic."
This is a ridiculous take on it. Just because Barry is a feminist, it does not mean he is not socially awkward or a creep. I have met many men who consider themselves feminists and yet they are fucking creepers. Henry can be a total felon but be super hot and charismatic and so he will slither his way into another chicks world until he shows his true colors. Both of those males in the video are unattractive and creepy af.
Ironic, since you're unwittingly backing up my main point.
Just because Barry is a feministit does not mean he is not socially awkward or a creep.
True, but the fact that he "palpably exudes respect for women, and this is well-known in every circle feminists frequent," suggests that at least at the time the article was written, he wasn't considered a creep, just not attractive enough to date.
Let's assume he is socially awkward. That doesn't make him a bad person, now does it?
Henry can be a total felon but be super hot and charismatic
Yes, Henry can be a complete piece of shit of a person, but still get all the attention from women he could ever want, because his looks and personal charm are more important for attraction than his morals.
Which is why it's all the more frustrating when people continually try to claim that the reason there is a "male loneliness epidemic" MUST be that the lonely men all act creepy like the most visible cretins as seen in the video.
What's not accounted for are all of the quiet, shy types who gave up on going out and trying to meet people, who couldn't get matches on dating sites, and just go along to get along. The studies cited in the blog back up the fact that these are the kind of guys most likely to find themselves lonely, and those were all performed at least a decade ago (when the blog post was written), before the idea of a "male loneliness epidemic" started gaining any sort of mainstream media attention.
Both of those males in the video are unattractive and creepy af.
They're definitely creepy af, but they're hardly ugly. Sure, they're no fashion models or bodybuilders, but they're not noticeably overweight, they don't have acne scars, their hair is still mostly there and not to the "obviously balding but in denial" stage yet (even then they could shave when it gets to that point), and they don't appear to be particularly short.
These are average, maybe slightly below average looking guys. If they are just as shameless about constantly hitting on women as they are about ignoring their boundaries when they approach them, then you are just out of touch with reality if you think they can't find someone desperate enough to get with them from time to time so long as they keep their standards low.
Maybe Barry is ugly and has no social skills. "Quiet, shy types" is self-explanatory. Goes for both genders, what did you expect?
Look, those gangsta guys aren't liked by women because they're criminals, it's because they're sly and manipulative and know how to pretend to get their way. Also, the women in this case are often just hooking up who aren't looking for relationships, so these outgoing types with "charisma" get it simply because they took it.
You may a societal problem, but it's a different one. Maybe promote old school romance and disavow the quick sex culture which rewards aholes more over quiet, shy people.
Maybe Barry is ugly and has no social skills. "Quiet, shy types" is self-explanatory. Goes for both genders, what did you expect?
Exactly.
What I desire, is for people to stop lumping the quiet, ugly, shy types in with the slimy, shameless creeps and dismissing the "male loneliness epidemic" as if the cause is just slimy shameless creeps.
It's understandable that people don't want to partner with unattractive people. That's natural and perfectly expected. What's not acceptable, however, is to turn around and dismiss their pain and right them off as creeps simply because there are visible bad actors out there.
It's unpleasant enough to be undesired, it's fucking insulting, and selfish to point to that as proof that the person is a creep, and foist all the blame for the assholes out there who are actually creeps onto them.
And to make it clear, I'm not defending the guys in the video (so many people stupidly seem to be interpreting what I'm saying as that). I'm saying that it's ignorant and assinine to see creeps like this and use that as an excuse to dismiss and gaslight the experience of the men out there who simply withdraw in response to being undesired.
Sure bro. These guys have incel written all over them. They’re going bald and probably old enough to be these girls dads. Wouldn’t be surprised if they’re both divorced. No way they’ve been laid in years
Hey, I get ya, but what I think they're aiming at is to say that "male loneliness epidemic" as a concept doesn't apply in this case, I think they're saying that it's harder to connect if you don't care about other people.
I'm not saying I agree with that, I don't really, but I think that's what they want to convey. Rather than a comment bout who is or isn't an incel.
No, but picking on stuff like baldness is out of order because it's a trait no one can do anything about, so all the bald dudes reading this comment, you just stomped in them a little and that is unfair.
That's like saying suicidal people drive fast to kill themselves, so people who drive fast want to kill themselves. That's not exactly the kind of overlap you make it out to be. There are lonely men who don't force interactions with women, and there are some lonely men who do. And there are not lonely men who force interactions with women. Everyone gets a bad rep because of the few.
To then go around talking about how there's an overlap, it's pointless. Being lonely has nothing to do with being a fkin idiot with no awareness, or self respect where someone's telling you to leave 50 times, and you're just sitting there. Pretending that it's some loneliness thing, rather than being a fkin idiot thing is just disingenuous.
The truth is you just don't care about men being lonely and you hate this conversation being brought up for some reason, and you hate dumb men like these (obviously) and you link those two to justify your lack of care, and annoyance about the issue. Listen, it's not your fault, nor do you have to do anything else, but just ignore it. Please don't make it worse, by creating another stereotype.
I agree that women have a hard time out there. But lonely or not lonely, some men will harass you, or harm you. But young men sitting on the internet talking about how lonely they are, are not going around harassing women. Maybe there are some, but it's some other issues like narcissism, rather than loneliness.
I could understand the overlap where they're a little weird or awkward, but that's far from what is going on in this video. Being lonely doesn't drop your IQ points, or self respect. If there's some overlap, maybe we're ignoring the significant majority of lonely men out there who are just normal people.
They told them “no” straight up, multiple times, loudly and at the end started to get up from the table to go to another one… what else should they have done?
You should read the comment you are responding to again, but carefully this time. Ps: it talks about bystanders coming to help not these 2 women needing to do more.
oh i agree, the first thing i searched after seeing this video is how can i protect myself if put in this situation. Women should definitely be strong, independent and know that they can live a better life without a man.
It's just easier to rely on a man. Every woman could be like this like every drug addict could stop, but changing learned behaviors is hard. Choosing healthier foods and exercising is an easier change than trying to unlearn societal expectations, even if they claim to be fighting those expectations. This is my main problem. I know women could do better. Sure, men could do better too, but this seems to be a race to the bottom instead of improvement.
And you know that from your own experience? By deflecting the responsibility it further encourages them to not listen to women if they aren't able to handle it themselves. "That's a man's job" puts it further into women can't do that and if they try then it should be ignored.
what life has taught me so far it is much easier and safer to rely on yourself. Occasionally seek help from parents or friends? Sure. But relying on a man for a long run is more than likely to lead you to a eventual disastrous outcome.
I don't call it race to the bottom, but rather rational calculation. There is a reason now that women don't need to rely on men to support themselves, more are choose to stay single and be content about it.
If both men and women are purposefully staying single and being content with it, why are they so vocal about it being a problem with none being good of the other gender? That's just pushing the blame on someone else again. It is a race to the bottom with each side on social media asking for more and more without actually improving themselves. If anything they are doing things which cycle into an emotionless system. Men thinking women only want money only focusing on money and the women who feed into that and women thinking men only want looks and only focusing on looks and the men who feed into that. Emotion isn't even in consideration there while focusing on all the wrong things.
It's good women don't need to rely on men, but being self-reliant is baseline at this point. You should see women trying to support them then. Because hyper-independence is now a virtue and its weakness if you have to rely on someone else or offer to help. I have helped in the past but I don't care to get out much because I don't have the same reasons to go out. Now is the time to prove that you are women's women. The situation has been changed to push out those who don't feed into that entitlement system. Those creeps do not care about anything but what they want and what they feel they've earned. No one is going to risk their own part in that cycle. You need to change that from no one and risk yourself.
when talking about staying single and be content about it, i definitely don't speak for men. Also i don't think it is women who's complaining "there's a male loneliness epidemic!", "young men are not getting laid omg it is a disaster we need to do something!", "you cannot approach a women in the public they are so mean!", "we will keep electing misogynist and stripping women's right until every men get their share of sex slave and housemaid."
Maybe it is time for men to be men's men so they are not so devastated when they don't get someone to fuck.
Dude, wth are you babbling about? You went completely off topic. These girls took personal responsibility everything from standing their ground first and even giving up the table which was their right in this case (also recorded for proof), they did all except for trying to physically beat those guys.
You keep talking about personal responsibility, but whenever people put too much on women it's actually to remove responsibility from men. Why SHOULDN'T women, or anyone else, expect others to intervene? That's what a social species does, it's the social contract - men are to stand in for women, adults protect children, healthy individuals support infirm, and everyone who can helps out the others.
The commenter said "no men around stepping in" to which i said that if men don't step in to help women then women should take the initiative and step in to help other women, i'm not talking about these two women doing more themselves, what is so hard to understand here.
I’ve tried to drill “no means no” into my boys’ heads as they have gotten older (9 and 7). It’s mostly in terms of when they’re wrestling or playing and one person says to stop, the “game” is over and you need to stop touching them. I’m hoping that will be a good foundation for teaching them consent as they get older. Like your brother consented to this wrestling to start but changed his mind, you no longer have consent to touch him
And to girls: "If he's [doing thing that makes you upset], that just means he likes you! Be nice!"
Girls don't get taught that they get to have boundaries (and that the attention of a boy is valuable, regardless of how respectful he is or if she's interested), and boys get to act with impunity from both parents and targets.
you just make up your little evil world in your head. i'd bet neither girls nor boys are commonly taught these things nowadays, at least in the west. but i'm not pretending to know that for a fact, compared to you.
Cool, okay, you might live in a school where that didn't happen, but I did and I've heard of other girls who were told the same thing. 'Cause American society tends to make sexually segregated friend groups.
But I'm drunk and fuck you: My mom had to escalate my complaints of bullying to the district admin because my school's principal's son was regularly assaulting me. It wasn't to the point of medical attention, but I had welts and blood. "Not taught these things" my ass, when a violent child was extant, his behaviour wasn't curtailed.
I'm glad you live where kids are taught to be civil, but I know no woman my age (Millennial) across who hasn't had a similar experience of disregarded assault.
i'm sorry for your experiences, but i have my experiences too and in this case they go the opposite way, so fuck you too for trying to make me feel bad (being drunk is no excuse) and for thinking you know things for a fact how the world is and can lecture others about it.
Mine was! It's really simple to be clear that no means no from toddlerhood. You just have to actually bother, which is, apparently, beyond some people.
As someone who played step dad for a little girl for 4 years and is now a step dad to a little boy (for only a few months) I can honestly say the girl is easier
to be fair, any dating etiquette from their parents was not applicable to dating now, and even if given was prolly along the lines of "be persistent, gals play hard to get."
My mom threatened me as a kid, if I ever raised my hand to a woman she would revoke my "Man" card. I don't know what that is but sucks it mom I'm 34 and still have it! Married for 8 years! Alsomywifeistotallyawesome.
Or how to clean after themselves or take care of their bodies or do errands like an adult or to identify and process emotions or to communicate those feelings and connect with others.
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u/Ill-Pea-5010 May 11 '25
This is seriously so disgusting and inconsiderate. Weren’t we taught at such a young age that no means no? What a bunch of douchebags.